Hi gents,
I had always considered the M47, M48 and M60 tanks to be, let's say, "hard to look at", which is a Spanish euphemism for plain ugly. It is not my intention to upset anyone but I keep my opinion on the M47. But, to my surprise, I have just developed a second-sight kinda love for the latter two.
I would like to grab one of them and build it (her?) in IDF markings, during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. I have got no AMS, no skills, and no money for aftermarkets - so there is no choice; it will be either OOB or OOB.
- M60: I am considering Italeri #6391 M60 Blazer. Would this one fit the bill just by not installing the reactive armour parts? Any better alternative, always on the cheap side? I am actually pretty scared about link-length tracks; even if they would fit. I have nothing against rubberbands. Well, I mean good flexible rubberbands, not the kind of fossilized sh** that came with Italeri's M4A1 Sherman.
- M48: What easily available box would build into a not necessarily good,simply decent 1973 IDF thing?
Thanks in advance, and I hope pattonic lovers will forgive my (partial) heresy.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Alternatives for Yom Kippur.
lentorpe
Joined: August 12, 2010
KitMaker: 104 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 - 11:03 AM UTC
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 - 11:32 AM UTC
If you really want an alternative, go with the Cent. Or the M51.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 - 11:40 AM UTC
For the M60, in '73 Yom Kippur War, the US sent M60A1s straight from depots in Germany to replace losses. The initial ones were standard US Army M60A1s still in OD Green with the US stars oversprayed w/black. They were later repainted in IDF sand. Esci's M60 A1 kit (recently reissued by Italeri) will fit the bill for these. The Esci kits are currently the best M60s on the market. The link-&-length tracks are really pretty easy to work with and look 1000 timed better than rubber band tracks.
For the M48A3, there is no OOB option. You have to backdate/update an existing M48A3 kit (Tamiya or Dragon). The major changes are the commander's hatch (early ones had the cupola from a Sherman, later ones had the Urdan cupola), armored air cleaners, and replaced barrel w/an L7A2 105mm barrel. See my IDF M48A3, Megach 3, build for more info.
For the M48A3, there is no OOB option. You have to backdate/update an existing M48A3 kit (Tamiya or Dragon). The major changes are the commander's hatch (early ones had the cupola from a Sherman, later ones had the Urdan cupola), armored air cleaners, and replaced barrel w/an L7A2 105mm barrel. See my IDF M48A3, Megach 3, build for more info.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 - 01:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi gents,
I had always considered the M47, M48 and M60 tanks to be, let's say, "hard to look at", which is a Spanish euphemism for plain ugly. It is not my intention to upset anyone but I keep my opinion on the M47. But, to my surprise, I have just developed a second-sight kinda love for the latter two.
I would like to grab one of them and build it (her?) in IDF markings, during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. I have got no AMS, no skills, and no money for aftermarkets - so there is no choice; it will be either OOB or OOB.
- M60: I am considering Italeri #6391 M60 Blazer. Would this one fit the bill just by not installing the reactive armour parts? Any better alternative, always on the cheap side? I am actually pretty scared about link-length tracks; even if they would fit. I have nothing against rubberbands. Well, I mean good flexible rubberbands, not the kind of fossilized sh** that came with Italeri's M4A1 Sherman.
- M48: What easily available box would build into a not necessarily good,simply decent 1973 IDF thing?
Thanks in advance, and I hope pattonic lovers will forgive my (partial) heresy.
My M60A1 Blazer Kit is in storage, so I can't check, but I believe it comes with the Urdan cupola. Newly delivered tanks would still have the US cupola, which I gather Italeri and Revell Germany have offered with their M60A1 kit (all of these are variants of the original Esci molds--pending the release of the new AFV Club kit, these are still the best M60 kits made). There is an odd glitch with the 105 mm gun barrel, as Esci depicted it with the just the back half of the gun thermal sleeve (i.e. the section behind the bore evacuator). This is wrong for either an M60A1 or an M60A3, so get out you files, and taper that section of the barrel down. Otherwise, it's a great kit.
For an M48 in 1973, your best bet for now is Academy's M48A5K, though you'll need to delete the side skirts (and the plastic rib that they glue to). The late US cupola is an adaptation of the Urdan cupola, which was itself an adaptation of the original M48 cupola. Academy's molds were based on Tamiya's M48A3, so like that kit, the suspension rides a little high (the first suspension arm is the right height--if you're ambitious, just lower the rest a little bit). Any other Israeli-specific modifications will have to be scratch built.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 - 02:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
For an M48 in 1973, your best bet for now is Academy's M48A5K...
Beware, the Academy M48A5 kit fenders are too narrow and the track is narrow. They kept the same outer width of the fenders when they added the side skirts, which required narrow track and rear sprockets. When the skirts are removed, the fenders and track are now too narrow. I would stick with converting the Tamiya or more accurate Dragon offering. If you get the Verlinden M48/M60 Update Set, you will have the barrel and Urdan cupola to use. Or, you can get the Urdan cupola and M68/L7A2 barrel separately as well.
lentorpe
Joined: August 12, 2010
KitMaker: 104 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 - 11:13 AM UTC
Thanks a a lot, guys! At least, I will be conscient of most of my unaccuracies. (Sinnerīs redemption through self-inflicted mind pain???)
I find it hard to believe that no major manufacturer offers a Yom Kippur IDF M48/60 right out of the box in typical recognizeable IDF camo. After all, werenīt those of 1973 the most desperate and fiercely fought tank battles since Kursk? (and surely more desperate, from an Israeli point of view)
As I said, aftermarket is not an option for me. Hopefully I will manage to fix the gun barrel issue that Gerald pointed. But I can smell a M60 Blazer with no Blazer at all, showing off its OOB Urdan cupola, painted in glorious IDF enigma-gray. I will cultivate my forgiving, indulgent side trying to convince myself that it is a "What-if" M60; something like "What if the Israelis had had some M60's with exactly the 1982 as-per-Italeri Blazer configuration, other than Blazer itself, ready for combat in 1973".
Porca miseria... (D. Vito Corleone)
I find it hard to believe that no major manufacturer offers a Yom Kippur IDF M48/60 right out of the box in typical recognizeable IDF camo. After all, werenīt those of 1973 the most desperate and fiercely fought tank battles since Kursk? (and surely more desperate, from an Israeli point of view)
As I said, aftermarket is not an option for me. Hopefully I will manage to fix the gun barrel issue that Gerald pointed. But I can smell a M60 Blazer with no Blazer at all, showing off its OOB Urdan cupola, painted in glorious IDF enigma-gray. I will cultivate my forgiving, indulgent side trying to convince myself that it is a "What-if" M60; something like "What if the Israelis had had some M60's with exactly the 1982 as-per-Italeri Blazer configuration, other than Blazer itself, ready for combat in 1973".
Porca miseria... (D. Vito Corleone)
hobgrot
Joined: August 06, 2011
KitMaker: 113 posts
Armorama: 112 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 - 02:39 PM UTC
of note is that the IDF Urdan cupola provided in all kits are crude & in-accurate .... they were made in several factories & have differences between them. The Verlinden item is very undersized too (as are most of their resin items I've tried).
The Legends one might be ok ?
The Legends one might be ok ?
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 - 03:26 PM UTC
If you fancy a 1967 Arab Israeli War vehicle, Revell Germany is about to release an M48A2/A2C (externally, they differ only in the deletion of the track tension roller between the drive sprocket and the rearmost road wheel). As it happens, the West German Bundeswehr had a lot of M48A2C Pattons as surplus in 1967, as their tank battalions began to switch to the Leopard, and these were quietly shipped to Israel as war reparations. The Israelis had ambitious plans to upgrade them but most had to go into battle unmodified. Some had their US cupolas replaced with old Sherman cupolas, some did not. Only a handful were up gunned to 105 mm when the war broke out.
Beware, though--Revell/USA also offers the ancient Monogram M48A2, so make sure you're ordering the all-new kit, not the kit from the 1950's, and Revell Germany has also offered it in the past, sometimes boxed with a Jeep.
Beware, though--Revell/USA also offers the ancient Monogram M48A2, so make sure you're ordering the all-new kit, not the kit from the 1950's, and Revell Germany has also offered it in the past, sometimes boxed with a Jeep.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2014 - 07:45 PM UTC
A couple of other things to bear in mind with M60s in 1973.
The bulged turret chin armour that is present on some M60A1/A3 kits is a post-1973 feature, added based on combat experience in the war.
Most M60 kit hulls have a fuel filler on the left side behind the turret ring but no real M60 hulls do.
No thermal sleeve in 1973 and the gun on an M60/M60A1 is an M68 and not an L7. L7 has a raised 'ring' round each end of the fume extractor but the M68 doesn't. M48s (which were supplied with 90mm) could be rearmed with L7s however.
The bulged turret chin armour that is present on some M60A1/A3 kits is a post-1973 feature, added based on combat experience in the war.
Most M60 kit hulls have a fuel filler on the left side behind the turret ring but no real M60 hulls do.
No thermal sleeve in 1973 and the gun on an M60/M60A1 is an M68 and not an L7. L7 has a raised 'ring' round each end of the fume extractor but the M68 doesn't. M48s (which were supplied with 90mm) could be rearmed with L7s however.
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 09, 2014 - 05:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi gents,
I had always considered the M47, M48 and M60 tanks to be, let's say, "hard to look at", which is a Spanish euphemism for plain ugly. It is not my intention to upset anyone but I keep my opinion on the M47. But, to my surprise, I have just developed a second-sight kinda love for the latter two.
I would like to grab one of them and build it (her?) in IDF markings, during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. I have got no AMS, no skills, and no money for aftermarkets - so there is no choice; it will be either OOB or OOB.
- M60: I am considering Italeri #6391 M60 Blazer. Would this one fit the bill just by not installing the reactive armour parts? Any better alternative, always on the cheap side? I am actually pretty scared about link-length tracks; even if they would fit. I have nothing against rubberbands. Well, I mean good flexible rubberbands, not the kind of fossilized sh** that came with Italeri's M4A1 Sherman.
- M48: What easily available box would build into a not necessarily good,simply decent 1973 IDF thing?
Thanks in advance, and I hope pattonic lovers will forgive my (partial) heresy.
Man, I hate reading these kind of stories where a passion to build is met by lack of funds. In such a case I don't mind giving up a few parts that I know I won't be using for the foreseeable future...so with that being said, I'm gonna "ease the pain" a bit. Give me your address and I'll donate what aftermarket I can find in my stash..."compliments of the house". I won't know if it will be for a M48 or a M60 when I start digging through boxes. Make your mind up once you get the parts. Like you, I find it hard to model the M48/M60 when so much other stuff begs to be built!
TankSGT
Joined: July 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 946 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 09, 2014 - 06:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
A couple of other things to bear in mind with M60s in 1973.
The bulged turret chin armour that is present on some M60A1/A3 kits is a post-1973 feature, added based on combat experience in the war.
Most M60 kit hulls have a fuel filler on the left side behind the turret ring but no real M60 hulls do.
No thermal sleeve in 1973 and the gun on an M60/M60A1 is an M68 and not an L7. L7 has a raised 'ring' round each end of the fume extractor but the M68 doesn't. M48s (which were supplied with 90mm) could be rearmed with L7s however.
The bulges on the chin of an M60A1/A3 are barely 1/2 an inch thick. When I had to replace the mantle cover on my tank, I found out they were not thick at all and have more to do with providing a flat mounting surface for the cover. I doubt they offered much spaced armor protection. The turret ring an later turrets was extended down to cover the turret ring although both types of turrets were used on M60A3s.
Tom
lentorpe
Joined: August 12, 2010
KitMaker: 104 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 09, 2014 - 11:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
(...) giving up a few parts that I know I won't be using for the foreseeable future...
(...) Like you, I find it hard to model the M48/M60 when so much other stuff begs to be built!
Thanks a lot for your kind offer, John, but you should never say "never"... a sudden, unexpected Patton passion could happen to you tomorrow.
On the other side, after Geraldīs suggestion I have just learned that the IDF tanks had already their characteristic camouflage in 1967, a war which was no less epic nor desperate than that of 1973. I still would have preferred some 1973 issues for aesthetic reasons, but I can live without them - such are the advantages of being AMS-free... I can take a pencil, stick it into a potato, put them on top of a shoebox and call the thing "a multimodel, multiversion, multiscale tank". Now seriously, I will be more than satisfied if I buy a Tamiya M48 and manage to finish it OOB. And if I ever get to do just one third of the improvements Gino (HeavyArty) did on it then I will levitate out of pure joy.
Thanks again, and greetings.
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