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DML Saladin previewed on ML
barny
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 273 posts
Armorama: 272 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 08:54 PM UTC
If you want it buy it.if you don't well don't .really can't be doing with all the winging.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
.really can't be doing with all the winging.
What's "winging" - something to do with flying? Brit slang? I've heard of "whining" - a very annoying form of complaining.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Saladin Mk2 hatches details (for those who will need them in a near future) Courtesy svsm.org
Turret hatches :
Hmmmm...are these hatches original and complete? No head padding, or handle (other than the locking levers) on the inside? Depending on how thick Dragon has molded the hatch it might be better to scratch a whole new one!
smydi01
Joined: October 14, 2009
KitMaker: 219 posts
Armorama: 197 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text.really can't be doing with all the winging.
What's "winging" - something to do with flying? Brit slang? I've heard of "whining" - a very annoying form of complaining.
winge (third-person singular simple present winges, present participle wingeing or winging, simple past and past participle winged)
To cringe.
(Australia, New Zealand, UK, slang) Alternative form of whinge
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have to be honest, Keith, and say that I never bother to read the historical background info in any review.
Agreed. All that is useful is something like "The [subject of the kit] was in service from 1955 until 1970 with Oceania and from 1968 to 1990 with Eastasia. It was notably used in Africa in the Eurasian War." That will at least put the potential buyer in the right ball park. I still see many "/reviews" that pad out the word count with long expositions that remind me of the old Scale Modeler.
Other useless bits of info are talk about the boxart and the tried-and-true statement that the kit "comes in a sturdy box." Unless the box is so flimsy that it can't protect the kit, it's irrelevant.
Quoted Text
I rarely even care about the kit decal options since I [don't] usually build one of the kit's subjects. Same applies to camouflage and colors.
Ditto. The main purpose (I think) of aftermarket markings is not so much accuracy improvement but to keep your model from looking like everyone else's.
KL
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:39 PM UTC
As the saying goes..."Every block of stone has a statue inside it and it is the task of the sculptor to discover it.” ―Michelangelo
Same goes for the Saladin kit. For once in our technology driven lives, we got a new 'stone' (Saladin), and its up to us, the 'modeling sculpter' to bring it to bear '3D modeling art'.
I've been modeling for over 40 years, and believe me folks, you never want to ever see those kits from that period compared to what you have (and still complain about) now! God, if I only had the kits today back then...
Now, while prices of a kit is an additional issue, it also affects me of what I buy, and when I buy it. I'll probably wait awhile to purchase this little jewel and let the fever pitch settle in and see the prices drop on the Saladin too. With over 300 1/35 kits in the closet, I have time to wait for prices to plundge...and they usually do. I'll buy the Saladin "stone" then.
Back to the "inaccuracy' that many claim of today's kits. If you still feel inclined to advance the premise that todays' kits is as inaccurate as kits of 30-40 years ago...then I must disagree.
The technolgy of kits today far exceed my expectations and sometimes wonder how the manufacturers can actually retail a kit at a low price...given the adbundance of detail.
If the Saladin kit is missing a detail or two, then simply wait for the aftermarket to catch up to it, and when it arrives, begin work on 'chipping away at the plactic of your Saladin stone'.
Same goes for the Saladin kit. For once in our technology driven lives, we got a new 'stone' (Saladin), and its up to us, the 'modeling sculpter' to bring it to bear '3D modeling art'.
I've been modeling for over 40 years, and believe me folks, you never want to ever see those kits from that period compared to what you have (and still complain about) now! God, if I only had the kits today back then...
Now, while prices of a kit is an additional issue, it also affects me of what I buy, and when I buy it. I'll probably wait awhile to purchase this little jewel and let the fever pitch settle in and see the prices drop on the Saladin too. With over 300 1/35 kits in the closet, I have time to wait for prices to plundge...and they usually do. I'll buy the Saladin "stone" then.
Back to the "inaccuracy' that many claim of today's kits. If you still feel inclined to advance the premise that todays' kits is as inaccurate as kits of 30-40 years ago...then I must disagree.
The technolgy of kits today far exceed my expectations and sometimes wonder how the manufacturers can actually retail a kit at a low price...given the adbundance of detail.
If the Saladin kit is missing a detail or two, then simply wait for the aftermarket to catch up to it, and when it arrives, begin work on 'chipping away at the plactic of your Saladin stone'.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted Text.really can't be doing with all the winging.
What's "winging" - something to do with flying? Brit slang? I've heard of "whining" - a very annoying form of complaining.
winge (third-person singular simple present winges, present participle wingeing or winging, simple past and past participle winged)
To cringe.
(Australia, New Zealand, UK, slang) Alternative form of whinge
Even in a thread like this one can learn something useful. Love the regional variations of English one finds in these forums.
The comments about plastic and reviews have been made time and time again and don't change. Maybe in future we save time and just cut and paste the whole thread with the kit name changed.
barny
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 273 posts
Armorama: 272 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:52 PM UTC
Keef1648
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 09:57 PM UTC
With AA's kits having a lot of detail moulded on the inside of the hull and turret, don't expect them to add an update for this kit anytime soon, (from a very reliable source)....
But I have no doubt somebody will provide one shortly.
Keith.
Ps. and I an't whinging, just adding my first look take on this.
But I have no doubt somebody will provide one shortly.
Keith.
Ps. and I an't whinging, just adding my first look take on this.
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 10:10 PM UTC
I have to admit that with Dragon providing less and less in thier products I find myself looking at cheaper options. They do seem to be loosing or have lost their edge while still demanding top dollar from the punters for less detail. It is however good to see that for the most part they appear to have got this right, but it could be so much more.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 10:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextMaybe I should break out the calipers this week and start checking it (since I have the kit already).
Maybe you should, indeed. I would be very interested to see how are the basics in this kit, like overall dimensions and shapes.
I'm gonna +1 this. Assuming you have accurate drawings or a real Saladin at your disposal, dimensional inspection is the only way to know if it's really got the shapes right. If that's true, I'm golden.
Quoted Text
But after the M103A1 adventure, I will not touch any Black Label kit until I know the basic shapes and size are accurate.
Yeah, I'm also currently at the burn me once, shame on you, stage...
Paul
ruzzaa
Joined: October 17, 2007
KitMaker: 197 posts
Armorama: 189 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 10:35 PM UTC
you can always make this
Sri Lankan Army
Chinese-made Type 63 armored personnel carrier combined with the 76mm gun turret of a British-made FV601 Saladin
Sri Lankan Army
Chinese-made Type 63 armored personnel carrier combined with the 76mm gun turret of a British-made FV601 Saladin
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, January 19, 2015 - 11:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
given the adbundance of detail.
If the Saladin kit is missing a detail or two, then simply wait for the aftermarket to catch up to it,
Missing details are usually not a big problem. But significantly wrong dimensions and shapes are. As are major features incorrectly represented for a particular version of the subject. These are the kinds of inaccuracies that bother me, not missing details. And previous Black Label kits unfortunately were bad in this area...
But there is still hope that such basics are fine in this kit - we just need to wait for some more comprehensive review to find out.
jfeenstra
Joined: April 24, 2014
KitMaker: 342 posts
Armorama: 342 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 - 08:04 AM UTC
I took the kit out, along with digital calipers and measured some of the components. Note that I did not nor do I want to do any partial assembly, nor did I even take the parts out of the plastic bags (sorry, but I don't intend to build it anytime soon and prefer to keep it intact), so the margin for error here is a least +/- 1mm, if not slightly more.
My primary references for the real Saladin are Bill Munro's "Alvis Saracen Family" and the old AFV Weapons Profile No.27. The dimensions given in both books are pretty close. The Profile also has a 1/35 drawing of the top.
Here's what I got for measurements compared to the references:
Hull Length: 139.53mm, Munro gives 4.89m=139.71mm, Profile gives 4.93mm=140.86mm
Hull Width: I had to measure this by combining the hull measurement and the fenders. 71.78mm, Munro gives 2.5m and Profile 2.54m so lets call it 72.57mm
Wheel Base: 43.23mm, both references give 2.525m=43.57mm
Wheel Size in Munro is given as 12x20. I believe this generally equates to a tire width and sidewall height of 12" (8.71mm in 1/35) a rim height of 20" (14.51mm in 1/35) and an overall height of 44" (31.93mm in 1/35). It's hard measuring the soft DS tires, but I get 8.32mm in width, sidewall height of 7.94mm, rim height of 17.36mm, and an overall height of 33.08mm. so they are slightly too large in diameter, mostly because the rim diameter is about 2.5mm too large. Still close enough for me given my margin for error.
Lastly, I placed the turret shell and hull bottom shell directly over the drawing in the Profile title and both matched the drawing extremely well (pretty much perfectly) in overall shape and dimensions (within reason of course given the Mk.1 eyeball). I can't comment if all the angles are exact and things like that. The Profile title has a good set of 6 view color photos and these seem to match pretty well. It might be possible that the bend in the turret roof plate at the front is slightly out (0.5 to 1mm) based on the position of fittings.
I'm not an expert, and for me, it looks like the kit is dimensionally accurate (at least for what I am able to check without building the kit). But I will leave it up to each person to judge for themselves. And if I'm not quite correct with some of my measurements, I take no responsibility
My primary references for the real Saladin are Bill Munro's "Alvis Saracen Family" and the old AFV Weapons Profile No.27. The dimensions given in both books are pretty close. The Profile also has a 1/35 drawing of the top.
Here's what I got for measurements compared to the references:
Hull Length: 139.53mm, Munro gives 4.89m=139.71mm, Profile gives 4.93mm=140.86mm
Hull Width: I had to measure this by combining the hull measurement and the fenders. 71.78mm, Munro gives 2.5m and Profile 2.54m so lets call it 72.57mm
Wheel Base: 43.23mm, both references give 2.525m=43.57mm
Wheel Size in Munro is given as 12x20. I believe this generally equates to a tire width and sidewall height of 12" (8.71mm in 1/35) a rim height of 20" (14.51mm in 1/35) and an overall height of 44" (31.93mm in 1/35). It's hard measuring the soft DS tires, but I get 8.32mm in width, sidewall height of 7.94mm, rim height of 17.36mm, and an overall height of 33.08mm. so they are slightly too large in diameter, mostly because the rim diameter is about 2.5mm too large. Still close enough for me given my margin for error.
Lastly, I placed the turret shell and hull bottom shell directly over the drawing in the Profile title and both matched the drawing extremely well (pretty much perfectly) in overall shape and dimensions (within reason of course given the Mk.1 eyeball). I can't comment if all the angles are exact and things like that. The Profile title has a good set of 6 view color photos and these seem to match pretty well. It might be possible that the bend in the turret roof plate at the front is slightly out (0.5 to 1mm) based on the position of fittings.
I'm not an expert, and for me, it looks like the kit is dimensionally accurate (at least for what I am able to check without building the kit). But I will leave it up to each person to judge for themselves. And if I'm not quite correct with some of my measurements, I take no responsibility
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 - 08:36 PM UTC
Useful information, Jon.
Thanks for taking the time to measuring up the parts, cracking the book, and then posting up the results.
Thanks for taking the time to measuring up the parts, cracking the book, and then posting up the results.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 - 09:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted Text.really can't be doing with all the winging.
What's "winging" - something to do with flying? Brit slang? I've heard of "whining" - a very annoying form of complaining.
winge (third-person singular simple present winges, present participle wingeing or winging, simple past and past participle winged)
To cringe.
(Australia, New Zealand, UK, slang) Alternative form of whinge
I guess nobody "wings" here - except when they try to fly. Then they don't "wing" no more!
stufer
Joined: May 25, 2003
KitMaker: 416 posts
Armorama: 342 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 - 09:46 PM UTC
"I'm flying without whinges" vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 07:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textgiven the adbundance of detail.
If the Saladin kit is missing a detail or two, then simply wait for the aftermarket to catch up to it,
Missing details are usually not a big problem. But significantly wrong dimensions and shapes are. As are major features incorrectly represented for a particular version of the subject. These are the kinds of inaccuracies that bother me, not missing details. And previous Black Label kits unfortunately were bad in this area...
But there is still hope that such basics are fine in this kit - we just need to wait for some more comprehensive review to find out.
Here, here! Well put...
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 07:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
you can always make this
Sri Lankan Army
Chinese-made Type 63 armored personnel carrier combined with the 76mm gun turret of a British-made FV601 Saladin
Geech, what an ungainly beast of a vehicle.
Where would we be without these 3rd world nations and banana republics and their bastardized vehicles to keep us kit bashers busy!
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 03:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hmmmm...are these hatches original and complete? No head padding, or handle (other than the locking levers) on the inside?
I guess so...Here's a view from another Saladin (one of the lever is missing) :
http://members.tripod.com/flex-mount/saladin_13.jpg
H.P.
jon_a_its
Joined: April 29, 2004
KitMaker: 1,336 posts
Armorama: 1,137 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 04:48 PM UTC
Thanks for an insightful thread & thoughts, esp by Jon F, I always prefer a 'hands-on SPRUE' review!
FACTS, armed with a caliper & reasonable drawings, dm's etc, are the best form of ATTACK.
We can only hope that the sister vehicles, Saracen, Stalwart & the fire-engine thingy, will be even slightly more likely/possible?
I still have the old old Tamiya kit, (almost as old as I am, btw...) mainly 'cos my pops built it, & it would be fun to have it displayed next to the new one?
But I'll wait for the Price to go reasonable, as like others, I have waay more kits than I could build, & can wait!
Hopefully the 'frothing at the mouth' & 'knee-jerk' rabid reaction to everything on the 'black-plague' label dies down...
True DML have dropped the sphericals on previous releases, compounding their 'heresy' by not correcting the M103 bad turret for the last A2 release?
Other Mfrs have allowed sprue to escape, & taken note of comments by releasing corrections, Bronco Chaffee Turret springs to mind, anyone?
But then, " It's Only a Hobby"... (repeat as needed!)
FACTS, armed with a caliper & reasonable drawings, dm's etc, are the best form of ATTACK.
We can only hope that the sister vehicles, Saracen, Stalwart & the fire-engine thingy, will be even slightly more likely/possible?
I still have the old old Tamiya kit, (almost as old as I am, btw...) mainly 'cos my pops built it, & it would be fun to have it displayed next to the new one?
But I'll wait for the Price to go reasonable, as like others, I have waay more kits than I could build, & can wait!
Hopefully the 'frothing at the mouth' & 'knee-jerk' rabid reaction to everything on the 'black-plague' label dies down...
True DML have dropped the sphericals on previous releases, compounding their 'heresy'
by not correcting the M103 bad turret for the last A2 release? Other Mfrs have allowed sprue to escape, & taken note of comments by releasing corrections, Bronco Chaffee Turret springs to mind, anyone?
But then, " It's Only a Hobby"... (repeat as needed!)
pod3105
Joined: August 08, 2010
KitMaker: 466 posts
Armorama: 444 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 05:15 PM UTC
I think I'll just rebuild the Tamiya one i have from hull up.... 
spaarndammer
Joined: January 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,945 posts
Armorama: 282 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 05:46 PM UTC
I like the look of the Saladin and it is nice that the dimensions of the kit are accurate.
The model has room for improvement, which is also nice, so it is not only gluing parts together, but also adding a bit of AM (if available) or scratch building.
If I come across to this model at a show for a decent price, it may end up at my home.
Jelger
The model has room for improvement, which is also nice, so it is not only gluing parts together, but also adding a bit of AM (if available) or scratch building.
If I come across to this model at a show for a decent price, it may end up at my home
. Jelger
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 06:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I like the look of the Saladin and it is nice that the dimensions of the kit are accurate.
I'm still careful with a final judgment... The overall dimensions of the M103A1 (measured without the main gun barrel) also were almost spot on. But nothing was where it was supposed to be within those overall dimensions.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 - 06:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
......
Other useless bits of info are talk about the boxart and the tried-and-true statement that the kit "comes in a sturdy box." Unless the box is so flimsy that it can't protect the kit, it's irrelevant.
......
KL
but it IS interesting to find out if the box is sturdy enough to support the weight of other kits in the stash
it is also important when/if buying from ebay (the probability of the kit surviving the transport) 
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