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otto carius question?
stever
Joined: October 18, 2013
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Posted: Monday, January 26, 2015 - 11:19 PM UTC
Academy Tiger I kit has decals in it for Otto Carius for tank #123 in Lovetz Russia in 1943. Does anyone know if this correct? I have not been able to find any information to support this! Thanks in advance for any help. Steve
Gotrek58
Joined: January 11, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 12:20 AM UTC
Otto Carius first Tiger was #213! After he lost the cuppola, #213 received the complete turret of #217. That means hull #213 with turret #217!
Btw. they removed the first outer wheels, because of the mud. All pics in his book are showing #213 without this wheels.
Michael
Btw. they removed the first outer wheels, because of the mud. All pics in his book are showing #213 without this wheels.
Michael
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 12:46 AM UTC
Where is this information from?
Is it just coincidence that we see him in a different Tiger numbered "217" at a later time?
David
Is it just coincidence that we see him in a different Tiger numbered "217" at a later time?
David
PanzerKarl
Joined: April 20, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:03 AM UTC
Sound like he's talking about Tiger 123 from sPzAbt 503 the one with the panzer III stowage bin,not sure if that vehicle belong to Otto,Otto served in the 502.I know that tiger went through a lot of modifications.
Gotrek58
Joined: January 11, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Where is this information from?
David
The information is from Otto Carius directly. A member of my german forum had some telephone calls with him..
Michael
stever
Joined: October 18, 2013
KitMaker: 16 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:31 AM UTC
Academy say's he was in tank 123 of the 502 in Lovetz russia in 1943. I am not sure this is correct. I thought his first tiger was 213. Has for the information that 213 got the 217 turret, that is very interesting, the picture i have seen of the 217 looks like a mid tiger.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:45 AM UTC
I wonder if he was mistaken. We can't find any photos of a Tiger in the 502 that's numbered "217", except for a Mid Tiger; and we see Otto Carius commanding it.
It certainly isn't the same Early Tiger numbered "213" that we see in the summer of '43.
David
It certainly isn't the same Early Tiger numbered "213" that we see in the summer of '43.
David
Giovanni1508
Joined: April 17, 2014
KitMaker: 652 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:50 AM UTC
Hi Michael,
quoted text
_____________________________________________________________
The information is from Otto Carius directly. A member of my german forum had some telephone calls with him..
Michael
____________________________________________________________
Great !
Cheers !
Giovanni
stever
Joined: October 18, 2013
KitMaker: 16 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 01:55 AM UTC
Does anyone know if #213 was his first tiger?
Gotrek58
Joined: January 11, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 02:20 AM UTC
#213 was his 1st Tiger and had a grey turret but a yellow hull. The turret was "painted" with mud to become the ordered yellow finish. After the cuppola hit #213 got the #217 turret and this one had NO zimmerit!
The 1944 #217 Tiger (with a zimmerit turret) wasn't Carius tank, because he was in hospital at this time, seriously wounded.
Michael
The 1944 #217 Tiger (with a zimmerit turret) wasn't Carius tank, because he was in hospital at this time, seriously wounded.
Michael
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 02:22 AM UTC
Well, I'll tell you the evidence that I know of;
The unit received many new Tigers around May 1943. They were numbered such that there wasn't a 217; each platoon had 4 tanks.
There are photos of a Tiger numbered 213, and it was one of these 1943 deliveries.
More Tigers were received around January 1944, and now there were enough of them to have a 217. Some of the surviving tanks from 1943 are mixed in, for example 212. We don't have photos of a 213 from this time.
There are photos of a 217, and it was one of the 1944 deliveries.
We see this Tiger 217 with a commander who isn't Carius. Then we see it again, obviously at a later time due to the extra damage on it, and Carius is in the cupola.
Make of that what you will. I can believe that he was given a new tank, and he remembers it as a new turret.
David
The unit received many new Tigers around May 1943. They were numbered such that there wasn't a 217; each platoon had 4 tanks.
There are photos of a Tiger numbered 213, and it was one of these 1943 deliveries.
More Tigers were received around January 1944, and now there were enough of them to have a 217. Some of the surviving tanks from 1943 are mixed in, for example 212. We don't have photos of a 213 from this time.
There are photos of a 217, and it was one of the 1944 deliveries.
We see this Tiger 217 with a commander who isn't Carius. Then we see it again, obviously at a later time due to the extra damage on it, and Carius is in the cupola.
Make of that what you will. I can believe that he was given a new tank, and he remembers it as a new turret.
David
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 10:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just to clarify, when he received the 217 turret (no Zimmerit) did the hull 213 have zimmerit or was it also without? This is worth noting because Tamiya's Otto C.'s tiger is without zimmerit but when it came out people were saying that it needed zimmerit added.#213 was his 1st Tiger and had a grey turret but a yellow hull. The turret was "painted" with mud to become the ordered yellow finish. After the cuppola hit #213 got the #217 turret and this one had NO zimmerit!
The 1944 #217 Tiger (with a zimmerit turret) wasn't Carius tank, because he was in hospital at this time, seriously wounded.
Michael
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 10:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As a Tanker for 20 years, seeing someone else in the cupola in a photo just means someone else was in the photo not necessarily who was the tank commander. All of my crew members were photographed in the cupola at one time or another. I have had breakdowns and have taken over another tank from time to time and ether my gunner took over or the displaced TC took over until repairs could be made.Well, I'll tell you the evidence that I know of;
The unit received many new Tigers around May 1943. They were numbered such that there wasn't a 217; each platoon had 4 tanks.
There are photos of a Tiger numbered 213, and it was one of these 1943 deliveries.
More Tigers were received around January 1944, and now there were enough of them to have a 217. Some of the surviving tanks from 1943 are mixed in, for example 212. We don't have photos of a 213 from this time.
There are photos of a 217, and it was one of the 1944 deliveries.
We see this Tiger 217 with a commander who isn't Carius. Then we see it again, obviously at a later time due to the extra damage on it, and Carius is in the cupola.
Make of that what you will. I can believe that he was given a new tank, and he remembers it as a new turret.
David
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 12:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
#213 was his 1st Tiger and had a grey turret but a yellow hull. The turret was "painted" with mud to become the ordered yellow finish. After the cuppola hit #213 got the #217 turret and this one had NO zimmerit!
The 1944 #217 Tiger (with a zimmerit turret) wasn't Carius tank, because he was in hospital at this time, seriously wounded.
Michael
This is really interesting. Where did you get this information?
I'm still puzzled how there could be a 217 turret available in April 1944 without Zimmerit. It would have to be left over from 1943 and renumbered, which is fine in itself, but what about the Mid Tiger that did carry the 217 number?
David
stever
Joined: October 18, 2013
KitMaker: 16 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 09:35 PM UTC
In my personal opinion and i am no expert, I do not believe otto carius could mistake a turret change with a different tank change.It is probably one of those things that we will never know for sure, but it sure is interesting. Steve
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 09:39 PM UTC
Well, imagine you're thinking back on the events, years later. You would certainly remember the new turret, if you had changed from an Early to a Mid; because you had been sitting in it.
But, is there anything about the hull of the Mid Tiger that would stick in your mind?
David
But, is there anything about the hull of the Mid Tiger that would stick in your mind?
David
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 10:07 PM UTC
Maybe he was 'tank hopping'. His Tiger broke down (as they often did) and he just commandeered a less senior commander's tank when this particular photo was taken.
Gotrek58
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 10:52 PM UTC
That #213 was his 1st Tiger can be read in his book "Tiger im Schlamm". There are some pics of #213 in this book.
The other information (grey turret of #213 with zimmerit and the change to the #217 turret without zimmerit) came from my german forum and from an member, who had several calls with Otto Carius. Sad, but no further questions and answers possible!
I have/had doubts by myself, but I found that information was worth to be posted here.
Michael
The other information (grey turret of #213 with zimmerit and the change to the #217 turret without zimmerit) came from my german forum and from an member, who had several calls with Otto Carius. Sad, but no further questions and answers possible!
I have/had doubts by myself, but I found that information was worth to be posted here.
Michael
stever
Joined: October 18, 2013
KitMaker: 16 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 - 11:42 PM UTC
Glad you posted that information, it was very interesting to here his thoughts on the subject. I guess the one thing we did was get more questions than answers! Steve
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 - 10:29 AM UTC
Here's a question for somebody who owns Otto Carius' book. This may help to resolve whether he got a new turret numbered "217".
When his Tiger "213" had its cupola destroyed, what happened to that Tiger?
David
When his Tiger "213" had its cupola destroyed, what happened to that Tiger?
David
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