Denkelgelb and SCC 15 Olive Drab are probably two of the most debated WW2 colours. No doubt that we've had plenty of Dark Yellow shades to play with over the years but SCC 15 remained as elusive as a Yeti. Until recently - or so I hoped...

Mig recently released a new set under the AMMO title which was listed as a Smmart Set containing 4 British ETO colours used between 1939 and '45 - including SCC 15.

I bought the set a while back but have only just gotten around to using it. While it goes on nicely via an AB, the colour is just plain wrong. What were they thinking?

Below is a pic showing the hull painted in the AMMO colour while the turret uses a mix of Tamiya paints as advised by Mike Starmer.



Ok, the lighting isn't great, but it highlights the vast difference between the two colours used. Mike is a renowned expert in British colours so I have no reason to doubt him - but you don't need to be an expert to see how dark and wrong the SCC 15 Olive Drab is from Mig

Gary

I also have confidence in Mike Starmer's research, so I have to think you got the mix wrong (or Tamiya reformulated the colors since Mr. Starmer devised his mix recommendation). SCC15 Olive Drab was intended to approximately match US No. 9 Olive Drab. In practice, it was a bit more green in hue, but the darkness of the two colors was similar. The chalky shade on your turret appears way off target, even if we allow generously for scale effect or sun fading.
I can't comment on the accuracy of the hull color, since cameras and monitors will skew color values, but the saturation looks okay. A thin layer of dust will lighten it up considerably (as happened in real life).

After many years of Vallejo, and several failed attempt with AK / Mig etc..., I decided to put in my airbriush only Tamiya and Gunze.

I stopped immediately to have any problem with the airbrush and with "strange" colors put on the market only for increasing the vendor business.

There is nothing you cannot do with Tamiya and Gunze, simply mixing them.... and you can control what you're spraying

Hello everybody,

like Luca I have kept myself away from the fancy stuff (AMMO, AK, etc...) for years sticking to Tamiya and Gunze paints. Of course colors are debatted which is neither surprising nor uncomfortable. At least not every model will look like the other this way. So I personally don`t mind seeing some color variation and if the builder is happy with it....

I also tried to replicate some colors after the famous "Starmer"-mixes. This is how my Cromwell, or at least a part of it, came out of the paint booth after the first trial.



It is a little dark, as I work with some highlights which have not been applied yet, but I think the tendency is visible.

So, even if I don`t judge the AMMO-color I can`t explain how you got out with such a light color. For me the turret looks like it has been primed with Tamiya Light Grey. Did you really mixed with Starmers recipe? After all, people say SCC 15 is "Fresh olive drab, a very dark drab inclined towards green." (MAFVA). So, thats definitely what I see on your turret. Don`t get me wrong: I won`t take my Cromwell as an example of perfection. It should only show different interpretations. And you can paint your models in the colors you like. But you said that no one needs to be an expert to see how wrong the AMMO colors are. But to be honest I personally would consider them more correct than yours. Let`s see where debate will bring us today...

Best Regards

Dennis

Gentlemen. I fear you may be missing the point somewhat.

I am not looking for confirmation of the colour I mixed and used on the turret. I clearly stated that the lightning isn't great and yes, it does look very washed out. Gerald even points out the discrepancies with cameras and monitors.

The colour - in natural light - I have mixed is certainly a good rendition of SCC 15. If anything, it is close to Dennis' turret colour (Though a little lighter). The trouble with the AMMO paint is that it is way too dark.

Gary

Also keep in mind that we each perceive colors differently.

No, with respect it is you who seemed to have missed the point. Comments were made on the basis of the information given. How is anybody suppose to evaluate your findings, agree or disagree when you can't supply a reasonable rendition of what you are talking about.

If your colour, is as you say it is. close but slightly lighter than Dennis's colour, then it's way off in photographic terms.

You can forget about claiming it's people's monitors as mine is a design/graphics quality one calibrated for accurate colour rendition, and your turret colour bears no comparison to the colour shown by Dennis, even if you say it's the same, maybe a bit lighter. So how are we to judge and evaluate the Mig colour from what you've offered us?

On the basis of what you've shown your turret is way to light and the hull is closer to the colour stated, although probably not 100% accurate.

To expect people to agree with you and be critical of the Ammo product given what you have shown as a comparison is simply unreasonable and unfair.

Quote
Brown color SCC 15. This color was used by British Army in the European Front (ETO) in 1944 and 1945 as base color. Authentic color formulated for maximum brush & airbrush performance with the Scale Reduction Effect that allow us to obtain the correct colors in model kits. 17ml jar. Water soluble, odorless, and non-toxic. Shake thoroughly before each use. We recommend A.MIG-2000 Acrylic Thinner for thinning. Dries completely in 24 hours.

Well, to be honest: if you really managed to get a nice rendition of SCC15 I would be more than interested to get some pictures where one can see it. One can never learn enough. But, as some have pointed out: monitor settings don`t really convince me here. And as you are attacking a certain brand of paint very directly I think it is not asked too much to back these arguments here with some quality pictures.

Best Regards

Dennis

I was always under the belief that there was no such thing as an accurate colour during war time, as an accurate colour mix was not important at the time. I am willing to stand corrected.

Even if you have a piece of equipment from the era that's painted , you are still not sure if that color is correct .

If the manufacturer describes its SCC15 depiction as brown, it's hardly an encouraging start if it is claiming to produce accurate colours though. I don't think I've ever seen it described as that.

I do wonder at the amount of accurate data that has apparently suddenly appeared after all these years to permit such a large range of accurate colours and profiles in the associated books as the process of research is usually long and tedious; it rarely concludes at the time that a new paint range arrives on the market. Has anyone seen the reference sources cited to support the released colours? I'm not sure that scale effect is something that can reliably be built in at the production stage either - would it not vary according to the scale of the model? Great if so - they could make sets of almost identical colours in multiple scales......

I can't draw any conclusions from the first post either, as it looks like a grey turret on a green hull to me.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .

Can you tell us which Tamiya paint numbers were used for the turret? The turret looks close to Light Mud.


IIRC Starmer advises...
SCC 15: 5pts XF61 + 2pts XF62 + 2pts XF3 or
SCC 15: 5pts XF81 + 1pts XF58 + 1pts XF71
Light Mud: 4 pts XF55 + 2 pts XF49 + 1 pt XF66

The turret looks like it primer grey

Everyone. Ignore the colour of the turret please. Like I said, it wasn't ideal lighting and was only meant as an indication of how much darker the Mig colour is.

Hopefully the below will clear up any confusion



Photo taken with natural light. The colour on the left is Mig's SCC 15. The colour on the right is SCC 15 according to Mike Starmer's Tamiya colour mix as shown below...



I still stand by my original comments that the Mig colour is way off what would be accepted as SCC 15.

Here's the vehicle painted with the Tamiya colours with shading...



Gary

Alan

Included in the Smart Set "British 1939 - 1945 ETO colors"
A.MIG-110 SCC 1A (British Brown 1941-42)
A.MIG-111 SCC 2 (British 1941-42 Ser. Drab)
A.MIG-112 SCC 15 (British 1944-45 Olive Drab)
A.MIG-113 Khaki Green No3 (British 1943-42)

The labels on the set contradict what is in your post. Any thoughts?

Gary

I have just one explanation: Mig Jimenez is an artist, not a historian. And you know what they say about "artistic licence"...

I'm sure the color would look great once Mig applies all the painting techniques he usually uses. On it's own? - not so much...

I would really like to find a good mix or premixed paint that is very close to SCC15,I have a kit in the stash that needs this colour.
I see what you mean about the difference in colours.

To me all this story looks like the famous "quest" for the true 4BO (main USSR color for artillery and AFVs before, during and right after the war) and other colors for pre-war USSR AFVs.

I would not trust Mig's colors 100% by default - just as you wouldn't trust the model kit manufacturers for a historically and technically accurate replica of what they think they modeled

Plus everything that was said about the "artistic license" should also be taken into account - remembering that MIG (as a company)

a) NEVER cared about how realistic the models are - their main interest is in painting and weathering models, not in building them correctly.

b) they represent what many modelers call "the Spanish school" of modeling - which, as far as I could see, really believes that the more "effects" you put on the model the better it looks.

Without even thinking for a moment if all these effects could ever happen in reality or not.

Though, to be fair on Mig himself, I think he would pretty much acknowledge that he is far more interested in achieving effects than in historically accurate models; after all, many if not most or all of the models he uses to demonstrate effects are not even constructed by him personally.

The paint sprayed on the left above does look surprisingly dark in comparison to what you can see of it in the bottle.

Not related to the paint in question, but why the dark line of shading around the top edge of the turret?

Gary
I think whats confusing people (me included) is that the values in your pictures are all over the place and that it's near impossible to be sure what the actual color looks like. If I may make a suggestion i would combine all the items in the 3 pics you've taken and snap a new photo of all of the items together.

I assembled your pics into one and desaturated it just to show how far apart the values are:

Remember this just the basecoat colour [Even though some modellers do stop near that stage]. Add on the contrast, fading and filter effects you see in their guides and you'll get a rather differant shade that might have the more accurate look.

Also my new computer is so slow.

This will clear everything up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33ScN4D-HU

OMG Tony. Not sure what worries me most, that you posted that, or that I remember it!!!


I have used Mike Starmer's mixes for years and like the results. However, I remember Mike's SCC 15 as:
"SCC No.15 Olive Drab
This is the colour that replaced SCC 2 brown as the basic colour from April 1944 on for use in NWEurope and Italy to avoid the need to repaint US equipment. But NOT Bailey Bridges, these remained SCC 2 brown.
Mix: 5pts XF61 + 2pts XF62 + 2pts XF3. This is fraction darker than the standard so a wee touch more XF3 won't hurt. Then allow for scale effect."

So Dennis, your comment about a bit dark is replicated by Mike's own advice to lighten for effect.

Notwithstanding that Gary, not knowing where you got your advice for the Tamiya paints you used to mix, it would appear that your 3 already much lighter Tamiya colours could be the root cause for the difference?