right mixture for late german Dark yellow (late 44' to 45')?
dark yellow plus buff? or dark yellow plus tan?
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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late german dark yellow
avenue
Joined: May 25, 2013
KitMaker: 544 posts
Armorama: 542 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 09:32 AM UTC
SDavies
Joined: January 09, 2010
KitMaker: 979 posts
Armorama: 959 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 - 01:05 PM UTC
You are better off buying a MIG or AK branded paint, for late War German Camo
dark yellow plus tan sounds right, but you will probably never get it quite right.
Look at my Panther G Build log for the correct colour
dark yellow plus tan sounds right, but you will probably never get it quite right.
Look at my Panther G Build log for the correct colour
buckster
Joined: April 19, 2012
KitMaker: 56 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 12:10 AM UTC
That's the holy grail question right there. For me it's Tamiya XF 60 plus Tamiya XF 57 .I do a 50-50 mix and I think it's pretty good but hey !as Janes addiction sang , " there ain't no wrong man there ain't no right " .
Regards
Ian
Regards
Ian
edmund
Joined: November 10, 2014
KitMaker: 668 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 - 12:13 AM UTC
Humbrol has RAF middle stone Matt 84 give that a try .
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 09:25 AM UTC
I have used the following mixture of Tamiya paints for Dunklegelb:
2 parts XF-60 Dark Yellow
1 Part XF-59 Desert Yellow
1 part XF-15 Flat Flesh
1 part XF-2 Flat White
I was happy with the above mix on a late Tiger I. However, for a little variety, and on my latest WWII German tank (Panther G, painting in progress), I used that same mixture, and just dumped a bunch (unmeasured amount) of flat white into the mix, to lighten it. I'm very happy with this, as it a solid couple of shades lighter, perfect for the weathering and filters to be used which will darken it anyway.
2 parts XF-60 Dark Yellow
1 Part XF-59 Desert Yellow
1 part XF-15 Flat Flesh
1 part XF-2 Flat White
I was happy with the above mix on a late Tiger I. However, for a little variety, and on my latest WWII German tank (Panther G, painting in progress), I used that same mixture, and just dumped a bunch (unmeasured amount) of flat white into the mix, to lighten it. I'm very happy with this, as it a solid couple of shades lighter, perfect for the weathering and filters to be used which will darken it anyway.
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 09:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Humbrol has RAF middle stone Matt 84 give that a try .
Of course, we all have our opinions, but given that Humbrol 84 is recommended for current day IDF vehicles by THE IDF authority, and is more a grayish brown, with just the tiniest hint of green (to my eyes), not sure if it looks 'yellow' to any extent. But hey, that's just me
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 12:01 PM UTC
I don't know what evidence there is to support a contention that the Mig or AK ranges contain accurate colour mixes as there seems to be no published info that indicates the research the companies did (or who they consulted). I may have missed it and would be happy to be contradicted but I have seen nothing reliable to show that either range contains a more accurate match than anyone else's ranges.
However, you could try this mix for Humbrols of 1x84, 1x110 and 1x34 for Dunkelgelb. It is based on work done by Esa Muikku and Jukka Purhonen, two Finnish modellers who based it on examination of numerous undamaged and unweathered artefacts in their original paint. The mix was published in Mil Mod some years ago in an article about Finnish Pz IVs.
As noted, weathering (it darkens with handling and tanks are usually covered with dust and/or mud) affects the final tone anyway but it always seems to me that it's best to start with some evidence-based colour and adjust from there to avoid odd hues.
However, you could try this mix for Humbrols of 1x84, 1x110 and 1x34 for Dunkelgelb. It is based on work done by Esa Muikku and Jukka Purhonen, two Finnish modellers who based it on examination of numerous undamaged and unweathered artefacts in their original paint. The mix was published in Mil Mod some years ago in an article about Finnish Pz IVs.
As noted, weathering (it darkens with handling and tanks are usually covered with dust and/or mud) affects the final tone anyway but it always seems to me that it's best to start with some evidence-based colour and adjust from there to avoid odd hues.
durruti16
Joined: October 24, 2009
KitMaker: 134 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 01:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know what evidence there is to support a contention that the Mig or AK ranges contain accurate colour mixes as there seems to be no published info that indicates the research the companies did (or who they consulted). I may have missed it and would be happy to be contradicted but I have seen nothing reliable to show that either range contains a more accurate match than anyone else's ranges.
I agree 100%. It is just marketing, by mixing any other brand you can get the same result with the same level of accurancy..
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 04:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know what evidence there is to support a contention that the Mig or AK ranges contain accurate colour mixes as there seems to be no published info that indicates the research the companies did (or who they consulted). I may have missed it and would be happy to be contradicted but I have seen nothing reliable to show that either range contains a more accurate match than anyone else's ranges.
However, you could try this mix for Humbrols of 1x84, 1x110 and 1x34 for Dunkelgelb. It is based on work done by Esa Muikku and Jukka Purhonen, two Finnish modellers who based it on examination of numerous undamaged and unweathered artefacts in their original paint. The mix was published in Mil Mod some years ago in an article about Finnish Pz IVs.
As noted, weathering (it darkens with handling and tanks are usually covered with dust and/or mud) affects the final tone anyway but it always seems to me that it's best to start with some evidence-based colour and adjust from there to avoid odd hues.
No such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
SgtRam
Contributing Writer
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
Armorama: 2,859 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 05:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
Based on the book Camouflage and Markings 1 from Guideline Publication there was not standard for Dunkelgelb at first, and even after the standard was issued, the paint was provided from different suppliers, thus the shade varied slightly. It should also be noted that colors provided to the field for application included the instructions to be mixed with diesel for application. As fuel was sparse, it was mixed with what ever was on hand, thus changing the color drastically in some cases.
Thus Dennis is correct, there are no standard colors for German armor during WW2.
ComaBlack
Joined: September 19, 2010
KitMaker: 194 posts
Armorama: 148 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 05:05 PM UTC
Hey experts, how does Model Master Acryl's Dunkelgelb 1943 stack up compared to AK, Ammo, and the real deal?
Thanks
Thanks
alewar
Joined: December 27, 2006
KitMaker: 773 posts
Armorama: 765 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 05:47 PM UTC
Hi, I agree with all the comments about the DG. It's not supposed to end the war green colors were darker .So , why they appear lighter colors in sets ?. I agree that it's a marketing move too.
Reseda green appears in german color charts now, but I never see this kind of colors in charts of WWII colors.
Anyway, as you said, the color fades etc.
Regards
Alvaro
Reseda green appears in german color charts now, but I never see this kind of colors in charts of WWII colors.
Anyway, as you said, the color fades etc.
Regards
Alvaro
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 06:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
No such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
Based on the book Camouflage and Markings 1 from Guideline Publication there was not standard for Dunkelgelb at first, and even after the standard was issued, the paint was provided from different suppliers, thus the shade varied slightly. It should also be noted that colors provided to the field for application included the instructions to be mixed with diesel for application. As fuel was sparse, it was mixed with what ever was on hand, thus changing the color drastically in some cases.
Thus Dennis is correct, there are no standard colors for German armor during WW2.
Two things: 1) I fully agree with any who posit that there was surely quite a bit of variation in dunkelgelb - variation induced by multiple sources, multiple lots by each source, etc. And further complicated by the amount applied over some primer or prior coat (sort of like our hobby "pre-shading"!), consistency of that application on any given vehicle, and compounded by weathering and dust effects.
2) Dunkelgelb was really a factory base-color applied by regulation to all new production and all factory refurbishment / rebuild stuff from Mar 1943 - it was probably not commonly issued to units as a paint-paste for crew or small shop field application, unlike those dark green and red brown camo colors, so I would counsel caution when invoking the additional effects field use of different solvents and "vehicles" potentially caused - certainly true for green and brown camo colors, probably rarely, if hardly ever, true for dunkelgelb, I think!
Bob
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 08:13 PM UTC
No idea about Model Master as never seen it. Why not try mixing up the Humbrols (which did match original mint samples) and see how it compares to that? Personally I'm happy to work from that mix and try to match whatever paint I use to it but that's just my choice.
And I'm not an expert on anything - I just like to limit my reliance on the work of others to those who do actual primary research rather than making up colours to suit their own agendas. I don't own the Guideline book as I have no idea as to the author's credentials in the field and I'm not about to buy sight unseen in those circumstances. That may be my loss, at least for now, and I am not in any way suggesting that he is not competent to write about the subject. I will probably look at the series when I see them at a show next though.
Nobody is disputing that there would have been some variation but within a batch, it is probably going to be minimal, so a single vehicle in multiple shades of the same factory-applied colour is maybe not that likely. Still, why should I even care what colours or references anyone uses, as long as they don't break into my house and paint my models
And I'm not an expert on anything - I just like to limit my reliance on the work of others to those who do actual primary research rather than making up colours to suit their own agendas. I don't own the Guideline book as I have no idea as to the author's credentials in the field and I'm not about to buy sight unseen in those circumstances. That may be my loss, at least for now, and I am not in any way suggesting that he is not competent to write about the subject. I will probably look at the series when I see them at a show next though.
Nobody is disputing that there would have been some variation but within a batch, it is probably going to be minimal, so a single vehicle in multiple shades of the same factory-applied colour is maybe not that likely. Still, why should I even care what colours or references anyone uses, as long as they don't break into my house and paint my models
Dougall47
Joined: March 25, 2015
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 12:53 PM UTC
Hi, has anybody here tried the Italeri range of acrylics I have a fair few of them and I find they are a lot more difficult to thin compared to Tamiya and GSI Creos paints, also I think they might be made by Vallejo as on the bottom of some bottles there is a VA Vallejo logo. they do go on very nicely with a dead flat smooth finish.
Just interested in your opinions.
Cheers Doug B
Just interested in your opinions.
Cheers Doug B
firstcircle
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 01:15 PM UTC
One tip if you're going to start mixing your own shades... Make sure you mix a big enough batch and have something to store it in until you've completely finished your model. Even with supposedly precise formulae you can find you'll get variation if you try to mix the same thing again, so make sure you've got some over for those touch ups, repaints, corrections. If a paint mix doesn't match a previous mix, good luck with trying adjust it...!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 03:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
No such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
Based on the book Camouflage and Markings 1 from Guideline Publication there was not standard for Dunkelgelb at first, and even after the standard was issued, the paint was provided from different suppliers, thus the shade varied slightly. It should also be noted that colors provided to the field for application included the instructions to be mixed with diesel for application. As fuel was sparse, it was mixed with what ever was on hand, thus changing the color drastically in some cases.
Thus Dennis is correct, there are no standard colors for German armor during WW2.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, Kevin! Basically, my sources of information about German WWII exterior colors have been gleaned from the old, old, old SQUADRON Panzer Colors, Volumes I, II, and III books that were first released way back in the 1970s(?) or '80s. I bought them when they first came out, even though I wasn't really heavily involved in 1/35 armor at that point in my life. My first love was (and still is) 1/48 military, and some civilian aircraft of all eras.
To be fair, (I'm kind of going "off-topic", here) I am not really a slave to my aircraft models; I'm actually a fanatic over EVERYTHING within my vast range of interests:
HO "High-End" brass, brass/plastic-hybrids, some die-cast and some plastic w/brass detail parts Steam Locomotives and their consists, 1/24-1/25 Classic Automobiles of the 19-teens to Late 1950s, the above-mentioned 1/48 aircraft, 1/35 armor and soft-skins (mostly US/Allied from late WWI to WWII and on up to the present day, 1/35-120mm figures, and once in a great while, 1/350 ships. I also like to photograph scenic subjects, especially in my very rural home-area of the South-Western Catskills...
I'd like to get into 1/144 scale airliners someday, and possibly even the larger scales of the "wooden sailing ships- But the last two categories are definitely in the "pipe-dream" stage!
I find that even though the SQUADRON Panzer Colors books are so old, they are still very viable sources of information; A LOT of the more contemporary German Panzer color references available today only seem to re-enforce the information found in the SQUADRON Panzer Colors books. Not that I'm an old dog that doesn't want to learn new tricks, I'm also quite impressed with the KAGERO, OSPREY, AJ PRESS, and quite a few other books, as well...
For the benefit of some of our "newer modeller" friends, I can't possibly think of any better advice than this: If you want to build accurate models, then GOOD REFERENCE MATERIAL IS VITAL!
ENJOY!
SGTJKJ
#041
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 10,069 posts
Armorama: 4,677 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 04:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
Exactly! Look at present day vehicles and the color difference in their paint when they are supposedly painted with the same color. Huge differences in color.
Imagine how it would be with different factories, different color/paint manaufacturers, pressure of wartime, weathring etc.
The quest for the "right" color this or color that is purely an academical discussion with no conclusion ever reached for sure.
I definitely do not buy the story that any present day paint supplier would know the "correct true" color. That is just marketing
edmund
Joined: November 10, 2014
KitMaker: 668 posts
Armorama: 456 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 05:26 PM UTC
Maybe in our day and age the colors will be consistent and the same . We have computers now . 75 years ago it was a guy with a set of scales and a measuring cup mixing the colors and no two individuals did it the same . Everybody will just disagree as what they consider as the correct color .
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 05:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNo such thing as "CORRECT" PANZER DUNKELGELB, early or late- There are too many existing different variations that are possible. Same goes for ANY WWII color used by ANY of the combatants. You can have SEVERAL different shades of basically the same color on a single vehicle alone!
Exactly! Look at present day vehicles and the color difference in their paint when they are supposedly painted with the same color. Huge differences in color.
Imagine how it would be with different factories, different color/paint manaufacturers, pressure of wartime, weathring etc.
The quest for the "right" color this or color that is purely an academical discussion with no conclusion ever reached for sure.
I definitely do not buy the story that any present day paint supplier would know the "correct true" color. That is just marketing
Personally, I don't rely on ANY model paint manufacturers' claims of "Matched with an EXACTING dedication to ACTUAL PAINT CHIPS, and with the ACTUAL VEHICLES THEMSELVES" line of B.S. in reference to WWII German, or ANY OTHER NATION's paint colors, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOTTLE, no less!!!
Upon opening the paint bottle, I'll stir the paint to where it's finally "ready", and INEVITABLY, I alter the shade of what comes inside the bottle to whatever I feel is going to suit my needs.
Here is an axiom that I pretty much go by:
"NO TWO VEHICLES Are Going To EXACTLY THE SAME COLOR SHADE, Even If One Of The Vehicles Followed The Other STRAIGHT OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE..."
If you think about it, you realize that there will be color variations EVEN ON THE SAME VEHICLE, because it takes several gallons of paint to fully cover every vehicle as large as a tank, for instance. You have temperature variations, paint consistencies, and the painters, themselves. Photos exist of several painters painting a single tank all at once, and THIS BEING IN A HUGE AMERICAN FACTORY, which everyone knows that there would have been a mind-numbing adherence to speed and quantity guidelines.
And during WWII, one could hardly expect a Pz.Kpfw.IV or a Panther being painted with the exacting precision of a robot doing this work on an Audi, Mercedes, BMW or even a Volkswagen of today... To top it all off, German Industry was being bombed on a daily and nightly schedule...
And Soviet tanks during WWII? T-34s and IS-series tanks were superb machines in practice, but they certainly didn't look like something posed in an automobile dealer's showroom. Fit and finish were HARDLY an issue!
EXACT paint matches to EXACT SAMPLES and SPECS? PLEASE!!!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - 06:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey experts, how does Model Master Acryl's Dunkelgelb 1943 stack up compared to AK, Ammo, and the real deal?
Thanks
Hi! I use TESTORS MODEL MASTER II ENAMELS, and when I use the enamel DUNKELGELB, I invariably ADD a little bit of plain, old FLAT BROWN into my mix. To my eye, the MODEL MASTER II Enamel DUNKELGELB seems a little bit too "GREEN"- But that is STRICTLY A PERSONAL PREFERENCE...
There is a commonly referred-to example of "DUNKELGELB" which exists in the form of a 2cm Ammo Box that fits an actual FLAK 38, which looks a bit "warmer" than MODEL MASTER II "DUNKELGELB"- That's just one reason why I like to add a bit of the FLAT BROWN to my own "personal DUNKELGELB", which I vary in between different vehicles, and also a lot of times on the same vehicle!
Then there is the really pale "DUNKELGELB" shade seen on some of the "end-of-the-war" German vehicles. I just add a little bit of WHITE and a drop or two of ORANGE to the DUNKELGELB, which will give the shade a bit of "warmth". I prefer the "darker" DUNKELGELB shades, personally...
Chrisk-K
Joined: January 09, 2012
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 294 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2015 - 08:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI don't know what evidence there is to support a contention that the Mig or AK ranges contain accurate colour mixes as there seems to be no published info that indicates the research the companies did (or who they consulted). I may have missed it and would be happy to be contradicted but I have seen nothing reliable to show that either range contains a more accurate match than anyone else's ranges.
I agree 100%. It is just marketing, by mixing any other brand you can get the same result with the same level of accurancy..
Yeah, it's just marketing. I doubt MIG/AK guys participated in late WWII German paint production
I do a 50-50 mix of Tamiya Dark Yellow and Deck Tan. As long as the end result looks good, I'm happy.
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