Is there any way to apply pin washes without first applying a gloss coat? I am at the point in my first Dragon 3535 M1A1 build where I've got the base coat on (Model Master Acryl Sand) and where I want to start applying washes. I know the 'standard process' is to put on a coat (or more than one) of Future, in preparation for oil washes to pick out details. I'm still relatively new to the hobby (THIS time) and wonder if there is any other method that would be somewhat more time saving than having to go through the glosscoat/wash/dull coat sequence. I'm pretty sure that the answer is no, but in the event that I've missed a technique that's out there, thought I'd see what all of you have to say.

While I have not tried it myself, Michael Rinaldi has said that there is no need to apply gloss, and dull coats, that washes will work on any surface. The oils will flow better over gloss, but for small pin washes, the way I understand, they will work just fine.

I always apply a pin wash over a dull finish. This allows the colored wash to realistically only follow seam lines and raised details, as opposed to flowing all over the place because the finish is smooth. It looks better in my opinion since it is more realistic as armored vehicles are flat when they get dirty.

In my personal experience, I have never had luck applying a wash to a flat surface. What happens is the paint will "spread" all over the surface evenly and stain the paint in a why that cannot be removed. Over a gloss coat, the thin pain will get "sucked" around the details and panel lines, leaving the rest of the area free of color.

While this isn't the answer you are looking for, here is what I suggest you do. Buy a cheap model and paint it so that it is glossy on one side and matte on the other. Apply your pin wash, and see which side the paint performs more to your liking on.

Hi Kurt,
Welcome back to Armorama! Are you applying decals? If so you need to go gloss-decals-gloss-flat, then you can do pin washes.
If no decals, you can just do a flat coat and then washes. I have adjusted my technique so that now I only use the gloss coats to seal in the decals. Then I do all my washes and weathering on a flat coat. Don't do them directly on the paint, flat paint is very permeable and oils will stain them.
But the answer is yes, you can put washes and pin washes, and other oil treatments, on a clear flat coat just fine.

I have to agree with Jon Murphy. For the fellows saying they get the same results on flat finishes I would love to see some pics of what effect they are achieving, because I personally have not had that experience.

As John said, oil wash on a flat surface results in tide marks and stains that can't be removed. As you surely know, on a gloss coat you can come back and whisk off any excess. On a flat coat, not as easy. The virtue though is if you're looking for a dusty appearance, the wash on flat coat helps achieve that.

None of this is addressing the important fact that when you put that oil wash on your enamel paint you're probably going to ruin your paint job. Unless you painted with acrylics, you'll need some sort of clear coat to protect the paint, which future does well.

And decals on a flat paint? I've heard that future helps with silvering but I don't think it would help that much! Again I'd like to see the results, if they look good then I'll be able to start skipping the future coat also!

Well ...... I don't own an airbrush so have to brush paint everything. Because of this I've developed ways of doing things to replicate what real modellers do. It's close enough for me but I'm very conscious of being wary about telling anyone to "do it this way".

If you have an airbrush I'd recommend following the tried and true methods that many can help you with on the forum here, plus almost all of the online tutorials and big boy modelling books and CDs will show you the same system. Being able to draw on a very large pool of guys using similar methods (base paint, gloss, decal, gloss, weather, flat coat) or very similar variations of will definately ease the learning curve a lot.

I've attached a couple pics of my stuff just to show what can be done without a gloss coat in sight and using a brush too. As I said it isn't show winning but it's not too bad either imo. If you'd like to have a shifty on my blog everything on it is basically painted using the same methods. Feel free to pm me if you're still interested and I'm HTH ....

cheers
Brent

Personally I have never used a gloss coat. I use thin washes. And a small detail brush/

@Brent,

Painted by brush......ABSOLUTELY SPECTACULAR!

Cheers,
Joe

I actually Dull Coat after applying decals and before doing any washes or oil-dot modulation. This is how I've been doing it for 40+ years.

I only apply a gloss finish in the areas where I'm decaling, apply the decals, seal and blend the edges of the film with additional coats of gloss clear, and then give everything an even coat of Dull Coat. I apply my washes and other subsequent effects over this uniform flat coat.

I would recommend pre-wetting with clean thinners the areas for your washes and oil-dot effects before applying them. This helps prevent the pigment in the washes from getting "stuck" on the surface.

Also, a more discriminating application of the washes and effects is more controllable than just "slopping" overall washes on. Good work takes time and hasty short-cuts generally lead to poor results. Apply the pin washes to only a few details, work with them, remove the excess with a damp brush, and blend the edges. Clean up any tide marks at this stage and don't wait until later after you've done the entire model. Then move on to another area.

As always Mike, you give very complete and insightful replies and great advice. Awesome stuff!

Pinwashes are not dependent on the surface finish, each has a quality and some like the gloss for the ease of using capillary action and how the wash flows in and around details. Myself, I prefer the bite and texture of a matte finish and can do more with less, and because the amount of wash applied should be small when working it as a pinwash, it will not harm the paint underneath, and this is not the same process as the general overall wash by any means, which is where having a gloss finish is an advantage.

This photo is a small portion of a page on Techniques regarding this same conversation coming in TANKART 4, and thought it helps to illustrate how refined and tight a true pinwash application really is. The photo shows a simple oil pinwash being applied straight to the painted surface, no varnish before or after. Less is more, work in controlled sections and take your time, the results will be worth it.

Curt,

Use a wide brush to apply clean mineral spirits to the area you will be working on. (Apply in sections. Do not attempt to do the entire model at the same time).

Apply your pin wash (oil paint diluted in mineral spirits).

The first application of the mineral spirits keeps the pin wash where you want it. If you make any mistakes or if some of the pin wash bleeds to areas you don't want it, use a clean brush and clean mineral spirits to correct it.

Regards,

Rich

i always try to do my washes over any kind of clear finish. depending on what i need will determine what clear coat i put on. a gloss coat will help it flow better, but a matte finish will still work.
i dont suggest doing it without a finish. some thinners react differently with the paints you have on it. mineral spirits may not effect an acrylic paint. however, it will still effect it enough to the point where the paint starts to "coagulate" or get a bit sticky, and cause a bit of a gooey mess that wasnt expected if you arent careful. for pin washes, it wont matter that much simply because it is so little, but just beware of this.

Many thanks to all of you who responded. Sounds like I CAN do what I want, without the added steps associated with a gloss coat. I do like the 'security' of such coat, but that has its own issues. I am incredibly impressed with Brent and his brush painted AFVs!! Kudos, to you, sir! It makes my atrocious use of an airbrush look pretty awful! I shall have to try some washes on a less obtrusive part of my tank, and see if I can make it work like many of you obvious can and do!