Were there any instances of the Balkenkreuz placed upon the sides of any Panzer IV H or J turrets,
that were "not" adorned with turret Schurzen?
I cannot find any pics of such oddities if they did in fact exist. If they are any examples, and I am
simply inept at finding them--to which panzer division would such tanks belong?

George;

Just a sort of punt, here, but... "ALL" IV-H and IV-J came out the factory door with turret schurzen and hull schurzen. The complete schurzen set-up was a standardized feature from late G production in ca MAR 1943 or perhaps earlier, and continued to the end of the war - albeit the solid side plates were sometimes replaced in production by the mesh Thoma schurzen panels during later J production.

Hull schurzen were hung plates and removable (and often lost, given we see many pics showing missing plates), and hull-side racks could of course get ripped off and damaged. And crew had the "option" of removing plates or not.

The turret schurzen were a factory-attached "permanent" fixture - the set-up was bolted or welded onto frames welded onto the turret. None of it, other than the small side doors, was readily removable.

So... while there may be some pic(s) of an H or J missing that turret schurzen assembly (and certainly some of wrecks with same pretty mangled), it would not likely be any sort of purposeful crew mod or customization to their steed. I doubt any crew wanted to lose whatever protection was afforded by these things. From this, there would have been no call to be putting insignia onto the turret itself.

That does not say that it could never have happened. I can imagine that some one tank somewhere lost one side of its turret assembly or maybe it got so badly damaged (yet the tank survived) that part of it was cut away by the crew or a unit shop to keep the vehicle in service. And, if that happened, and there was no fellow wreck to cannibalize, one could imagine that the turret side missing its schurzen might get both camo'd and painted with some insignia. (And note; the turret-sides behind those schurzen may not have been originally camo-painted but only had the base-coat dunkelgelb... there's been discussion of this point elsewhere on Armorama and other sites. So, yes, one might expect that there could be some ad-hoc addition of camo to the now-exposed turret-side).

That might make an interesting build indeed! A IV-H or J with partial turret-schurzen and some hastily-done camo and maybe an added number on the exposed turret-wall!

Of course - IF you can scare up a pic showing your tricked H or J (other than some post-war Syrian thing or...)... that would trump all of anyone's (certainly mine!) twaddle about these turret schurzen and naked H or J turm mit markings!

Bob

Great info panzerbob01--!

I am wondering if there were any early Gs that might have had the Balkenkreuz placed on the turret sides? --since the early Gs to my recollection did not have the Schurzen affixed yet.
I wish I could find a pic of at least a G with the Balkenkreuz on the turret!

George, it is quite an odd thing you've raised. It seems to me that in the absence of turret and hull schurzen, the crosses, if present at all, are always on the hull side. As soon as a tank had even just turret schurzen, the crosses were painted on it. On later models, and towards the war's end, the absence of any national emblem becomes more common.
So I had a look through the Squadron In Action book, and the Osprey ausf G,H,J book, and not a single photo of a turret with cross painted directly on it is visible. Always as I described above.

Hard lessons learned during the invasions of Poland and France led to the later omission of a cross on the turret. The early all white cross made too good of an aiming point. That's why early on you'll see them painted yellow or painted out much the same way US tankers deleted those big white stars.

The instigation of this thread topic, derives from my looking over the old instruction manual for Tamiya's Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H for the equally old kit that came with it: Kit # MM-154. On page 11 (dedicated to painting and marking placement) the very bottom drawing shows a "naked" turret with the Balkenkreuz placed close up front to the mantlet with the number sequence following after. It even goes to say "Position of Marks Without Armour Plates"--!
I was quite intrigued by something I had never noticed before, and cannot find any ware else. The only other example I've found is a singular grey "model" someone posted on the internet! Naturally, I had to investigate this mystery. I think I've just about spent the last three days looking at every Panzer IV Pic on the internet!

The markings in the old Tamiya Panzer kits, were sometimes based on post war display vehicles in Germany. Pics can be seen in the old Schiffer books. (Similar to Squadron "in action" series.)
Thus the markings on a Pz IV H without Schurzen, taken from a vehicle preserved and remarked without Schurzen.