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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Blitz Kit: latest newsletter is all about the 280mm!Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 07:42 PM UTC
Blitz Kit's latest newsletter features the 280mm Schneider mortar and its travelling accessories. They also announce the revival of the Warpaints.net forum, for those who can read French.
Read the Full News Story
If you have comments or questions please post them here.
Thanks!
Buckeyes57
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 08:45 PM UTC
Nice!
bill_c
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 09:33 PM UTC
Outstanding! Can't have enough WW1 guns!
vettejack
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 05:38 PM UTC
I wonder if that crane could/can be used on the back of an Opel Blitz or other trucks?? Would make for a great conversion!!!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 06:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I wonder if that crane could/can be used on the back of an Opel Blitz or other trucks?? Would make for a great conversion!!!
Lots of WWI and WWII equipment was reused after the war so if someone had an old WWI crane and got hold of a retired WWII truck and had some welding equipment ready then it would be perfectly possible that someone built his own "crane carrier". Maybe with some homemade support legs ....
/ Robin
vettejack
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 07:18 PM UTC
After looking on Google for French 6 ton cranes, no photos were available of this crane although a couple came very close. So, if one was to model this crane on the bed of a truck, would it then belong in the category of 'what if'??? Either way...this crane screams to be on a truck!
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 08:04 PM UTC
Here's a Magnard 6-ton crane :
In action :
On a side note, some Schneider mortars were still in use in 1940, like this one in the Alps :
and a few even found their way to the Eastern front :
H.P.
In action :
On a side note, some Schneider mortars were still in use in 1940, like this one in the Alps :
and a few even found their way to the Eastern front :
H.P.
vettejack
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 09:03 PM UTC
Very cool pics...thanx!
Now if there was a pic of a truck application of this crane...
Now if there was a pic of a truck application of this crane...
Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 09:23 PM UTC
Great looking mortar. Thanks for sharing the pictures, Henri-Pierre.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 12:59 AM UTC
Maybe it would be vise to consider which type of truck would be able to carry a crane that can lift 6 tons. What would the weight of the crane be ....
I found this page http://www.letortillard.fr/2014/04/grue-cowan-sheldon-6-tonnes/
where someone has built a 1/3-scale model of a different narrow gauge 6-ton crane. The weight of the crane carriage + the flat car is 420 kilograms. Let's assume that the crane weighs a little more than the flat car, say 250 kg and that half of this is the actual crane -> 125 kg (1/8th of a metric ton). The scaling factor for weight (for the same material of course) is the cube of the length scale -> 3x3x3 = 27. A 1:1 scale model of the crane would weigh in at 27 x 125 kg -> 3375 kg which is more than the official load capacity for an Opel Blitz. The Magnard crane also looks heavier than the type modelled in the page I linked to.
If that crane was put on an Opel Blitz chassis it would no be allowed on public roads, a 4.5 ton truck would be possible though, the Büssing NAG 4500 S for example :-)
Directly on the chassis frame .... with maybe a small load bed behind the cab, center of crane slightly behind the forward axle in the bogie ....
/Robin
I found this page http://www.letortillard.fr/2014/04/grue-cowan-sheldon-6-tonnes/
where someone has built a 1/3-scale model of a different narrow gauge 6-ton crane. The weight of the crane carriage + the flat car is 420 kilograms. Let's assume that the crane weighs a little more than the flat car, say 250 kg and that half of this is the actual crane -> 125 kg (1/8th of a metric ton). The scaling factor for weight (for the same material of course) is the cube of the length scale -> 3x3x3 = 27. A 1:1 scale model of the crane would weigh in at 27 x 125 kg -> 3375 kg which is more than the official load capacity for an Opel Blitz. The Magnard crane also looks heavier than the type modelled in the page I linked to.
If that crane was put on an Opel Blitz chassis it would no be allowed on public roads, a 4.5 ton truck would be possible though, the Büssing NAG 4500 S for example :-)
Directly on the chassis frame .... with maybe a small load bed behind the cab, center of crane slightly behind the forward axle in the bogie ....
/Robin
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 01:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If that crane was put on an Opel Blitz chassis it would no be allowed on public roads, a 4.5 ton truck would be possible though, the Büssing NAG 4500 S for example :-)
The Bussing NAG 4500S is often seen fitted with the 3-ton (= lighter than the Magnard crane...) Bilstein crane :
(and this crane is available in 1/35th scale )
My point is that putting a 6-ton crane on a truck would require a heavier chassis, closer to the Faun LK5 one (that was fitted with a 10-ton crane) :
H.P.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 02:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My point is that putting a 6-ton crane on a truck would require a heavier chassis, closer to the Faun LK5 one (that was fitted with a 10-ton crane) :
H.P.
You are probably correct in that assumption :-)
I didn't think I had enough evidence to say that an even heavier chassis would be required. With support legs the truck would only transport the weight of the crane, not the loads and stresses of operating the crane.
/ Robin
A modern hydraulic crane that can lift 5.7 tons weighs 2.5 tons so maybe a 4.5 ton truck would have been able to carry that Magnard crane ....
https://www.palfinger.com/en-US/usa/products/knuckle-boom-cranes/PK+11001_S106-EK-A?mode=group&group=loadercrane_medium&ref=1
but it could look as if the truck was overloaded .....
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 02:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
With support legs the truck would only transport the weight of the crane, not the loads and stresses of operating the crane.
I guess you're probably correct as well
H.P.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 02:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWith support legs the truck would only transport the weight of the crane, not the loads and stresses of operating the crane.
I guess you're probably correct as well
H.P.
There was a 3 tonne crane built by Bleichert which could lift 3 tons and was mounted on 2.5 to 3 ton chassis so
maybe a reasonable rule of thumb would be to say that the chassis load limit shouldmatch the cranes max capacity.
A six ton crane should thus probably be on a 5 to 6 ton chassis -> the Faun ....
German wikipedia about the Bleichert crane:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodrehkran_Bleichert
The crane has existed as a resin kit :-)
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 04:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The crane has existed as a resin kit :-)
It's still around
http://hobbyterra.com/product_info.php?products_id=2321
http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/details/zz/detail_zz_35001.shtml
H.P.
Sorry for the disgression Tom !
H.P.
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 04:16 PM UTC
Hmmmmmmmmmm...I have all the kits mentioned in the most recent posts...to include the Faun 10 ton crane/truck combo from Wespe Models, so, it looks like to me the 4500 might be the first possibility of morphing this crane that could handle the weight of the crane on its own (with or without outriggers). I also have the Bilstein crane as a separate kit, but would still like to attempt a build one day using the Magnard crane.
Maybe the two photos below might lend a crane of Magnard's size to be limited to halftracks. Both cranes look to be complete field modifications and nothing like cranes I'm use to seeing in German use, Bilstein or otherwise. Maybe poetic license in this case might be the call of the day. I've got all the 1/35 trucks a guy could possibly ask for, now I've got to decide if this Blitz kit will work. I'm leaning that it could by going on the adage that the possibility exist by shear numbers of weird, one-off vehicles, that WW2 produced.
Maybe the two photos below might lend a crane of Magnard's size to be limited to halftracks. Both cranes look to be complete field modifications and nothing like cranes I'm use to seeing in German use, Bilstein or otherwise. Maybe poetic license in this case might be the call of the day. I've got all the 1/35 trucks a guy could possibly ask for, now I've got to decide if this Blitz kit will work. I'm leaning that it could by going on the adage that the possibility exist by shear numbers of weird, one-off vehicles, that WW2 produced.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 04:28 PM UTC
IBG Models, Einheitsdiesel with Bilstein recovery crane.
http://en.ibg.com.pl/en,ibg-35006-1-35-einheitsdiesel-with-bilstein-recovery-crane,0,33,35,46,11934.html#.VRvWAE2KARY
Copy the whole link into a separate window to get
directly to that model.
Link to IBG : http://en.ibg.com.pl
/ Robin
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 04:32 PM UTC
I guess the half-track (Famo I guess) mounted crane in John's post is indeed the same as the Bilstein one fitted to the Einheits-Diesel recovery variant :
H.P.
H.P.
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 06:54 PM UTC
Are there any photos of the entire set-up in action? In other words, did the little railroad go right up to the gun pit? The diorama potential for this is both exciting and exasperating.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 07:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Are there any photos of the entire set-up in action? In other words, did the little railroad go right up to the gun pit? The diorama potential for this is both exciting and exasperating.
There is a pdf-file (in french ....) describing a lot of this and there are images included:
http://archives.ecpad.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/les-petits-trains-de-la-grande-guerre.pdf
The small trains of the Great War ....
There is one image which looks as if it goes into an artillery position. There is also an image showing a
gun mounted on a carriage wih support legs.
"Au cours de l’offensive, les responsables de l’artillerie insistent pour que tous les
dépôts de munitions soient reliés au plus vite à la voie étroite et que les lignes soient prolongées au
plus près des batteries d’artillerie lourde."
The responsibles for the artillery insisted that the lines should be extended as close as possible to the artillery positions so I would assume that they went more or less up to the ammunition supplies close to the guns
/ Robin
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 08:21 PM UTC
Here's a period picture that would confirm Robin's info :
Another view of the same mortar :
but I'm not 100% sure (only 99% the tracks look a bit flimsy to me...but maybe that's just me ! ) the tracks in the left foreground are standard, 60cm narrow gauge tracks...
A better view of the small cart used to carry the rounds :
Here's a period (?) drawing that shows the same setup :
H.P.
Another view of the same mortar :
but I'm not 100% sure (only 99% the tracks look a bit flimsy to me...but maybe that's just me ! ) the tracks in the left foreground are standard, 60cm narrow gauge tracks...
A better view of the small cart used to carry the rounds :
Here's a period (?) drawing that shows the same setup :
H.P.
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 08:41 PM UTC
Getting closer to what we're looking for (I think)...even if the application is rails, the photos depict different configurations of what I assume to be close, if not the real deal, Magnard cranes, utilized a bit differently on rail vehicles...I'm sure we can 'bend' the rules a bit and assume this crane can be applicable to the 'heavies' of the German Army, truck or halftrack.
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 - 11:08 PM UTC
My guess is these guns were in battery and that the narrow-gauge railway brought the munitions up to the battery, where they were off-loaded with the crane to field-constructed lines for the ammunition dollies.
The website doesn't list pricing for everything, so I wonder what it would set me back for the gun, the limber/etc. and the train? Could be a smashing diorama worthy of Alan's stuff.
The website doesn't list pricing for everything, so I wonder what it would set me back for the gun, the limber/etc. and the train? Could be a smashing diorama worthy of Alan's stuff.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 - 12:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My guess is these guns were in battery and that the narrow-gauge railway brought the munitions up to the battery, where they were off-loaded with the crane to field-constructed lines for the ammunition dollies.
The website doesn't list pricing for everything, so I wonder what it would set me back for the gun, the limber/etc. and the train? Could be a smashing diorama worthy of Alan's stuff.
Which items is it that doesn't have a price listed ?
/ Robin
I just scrolled further down into that pdf-file I linked to
in an earlier post and found this:
"La voie étroite sert par ailleurs à la construction et à l’installation des plates-formes d’artillerie
lourde. Le mortier de 370 mm Fillioux, par exemple, est transporté par voie de 0,60 m et mis en
place avec un pont spécial monté sur des bogies Péchot. L’emplacement choisi pour le tir est
ceinturé par un quadrilatère de rails reliés par des plaques tournantes à galets. Un des bogies portant
le pont sous lequel est suspendue la pièce (29 tonnes) fait son entrée sur un côté du quadrilatère en
tournant sur une première plaque, puis fait de même sur le côté suivant grâce à une seconde plaque ;
le pont effectue en même temps une rotation sur les plateaux pivotants des bogies Péchot jusqu’à sa
position finale, perpendiculaire à la voie d’accès. Après avoir déposé la pièce sur l’affût, il est retiré
par la manoeuvre inverse. Les rails permettent ensuite l’acheminement des obus sur des wagonnets
spéciaux."
It is about installing heavy artillery, in this case a 370 mm mortar (Fillioux). The rails were used when lifting the
heavy stuff in place, gantry "crane" on rails and later the rails were used to bring the shells to the mortar with special wagons.
Frenchy
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 - 04:31 PM UTC
Thanks Robin. So the pictured tracks should be 60cm narrow-gauge tracks indeed . One of the "wagonnets spéciaux" used to carry the ammo to the mortar is visible in my previous post (it's not included in Blitz new release).
H.P.
H.P.