England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 29, 2002
KitMaker: 202 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:24 PM UTC
All,
I don't know if this question has been asked before but..............
Covenanter
Crusader
Cavalier
Centaur
Cromwell
Comet
Challenger (based on lengthemed Cromwell)
Charioteer
Centurion
Cheiftain
Challenger I & II
Why do these tanks all start with 'C' #:-) ?
What was the tradition here?
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Kikladhes, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: September 30, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:27 PM UTC
Maybe they tried to pposite to the P of Germans (panther, panzer...) or the S of the US (Sherman, Sheridan,..) heheheh just thinkin. i really dont know but it is a good question
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: August 28, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:29 PM UTC
Don't know the story behind it, but for some reason I get Centurion and Chieftain mixed up a lot....
#:-)
Guess its a British thing.... but then they had Matildas, and those don't start with C's #:-)
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:30 PM UTC
I don't have the definitive answer in any of my references, but it could be that they belonged to an evolutionary series of 'cruiser' tanks?
The Churchill didn't for the same series, being an 'infantry' tank, all of which had individual names e.g: Matilda, Valentine.
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Kikladhes, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:45 PM UTC
Yep but they also had double C's like Churchill Crocodile !!!! hihihi
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:59 PM UTC
The original designation of British Armour was as 'Cruiser' or 'Infantry Tank' therefore the
'C' designation may have had something to do with this....just guessing, Jim
Goose, how do you explain Tiger, Luchs, etc. Also for your information, Panzer was
NOT the name of any vehicle in the German inventory, rather it was a short form of Panzerkampfwagen....
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 29, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:25 AM UTC
By the way, Major goose
Panzer mean Armour or armoured I think?
As far as I can tell all the American tanks were all M..... something, it's when the tanks were in British hands we gave them names (mostly American Generals and commanders)
i.e
M4.............Sherman
M3.............Grant
M3.............Stuart..........etc
Also a few tanks began with A......
Achilles (upgunned US M10)
Archer
Avenger
Abbot
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United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The original designation of British Armour was as 'Cruiser' or 'Infantry Tank' therefore the 'C' designation may have had something to do with this....just guessing, Jim
Goose, how do you explain Tiger, Luchs, etc. Also for your information, Panzer was NOT the name of any vehicle in the German inventory, rather it was a short form of Panzerkampfwagen.... It's a pity that the original (sensible) thread has to be hijacked by inane comments.....
that seems to make sense jim, but what about the infantry tanks, there seems to be no logical link to the names of these,
also cromwell is right, the US tanks had designations, M2,M3,M4 etc, they werent given names until taken into british service, sherman, grant, greyhound etc
using my secondary school knowledge of german, doesnt panzerkampfwagen translate to armoured fighting vehicle?
cheers
joe
"The machine gun is a much overrated weapon" Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig,Somme,July 1,1916
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won the lottery of Life" Cecil Rhodes
Kikladhes, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: September 30, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:31 AM UTC
Jimbrae thanks for the information on my post .
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 01:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
By the way, Major goose
Panzer mean Armour or armoured I think?
As far as I can tell all the American tanks were all M..... something, it's when the tanks were in British hands we gave them names (mostly American Generals and commanders)
i.e
M4.............Sherman
M3.............Grant
M3.............Stuart..........etc
Also a few tanks began with A......
Achilles (upgunned US M10)
Archer
Avenger
Abbot
M is the Model Number for that vechicle...the British nicknamed the US Tanks, but from what I can recall none of the US veterns from WW2 called them by those names. They where all named after US Civil War Generals for the most part. The First US named AFV was the Hellcat IIRC and the First Tank named by the US was the M26 Pershing.
I beleive that reasoning for the British names are because they where Cruiser tanks and took the C from that. Some names have been recycled (like Challenger) from WW2.
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 02:25 AM UTC
Gentlemen, behave. I honestly believe that Major Goose's reply wasn't meant to be nonsense, but that in fact he was just guessing.
As far as the word "panzer", it originally meant armored as in armored fighting wagon (sort of a literal translation of the word panzerkampfwagon) but is now synonymous with the term "German tank." Germany named their tanks for the most part after cats: Luchs (Lynx), Tiger, Panther, Puma (armored car), Leopard. They also used the term "panzergrenadier" much like we used the term "armored infantryman" and currently "mechanized infantryman."
The British started the tradition of naming US tanks after US Civil War generals (Sherman, Stuart, Grant, Lee, Jackson), but when the US Army adopted the tradition, they expanded it to include other US Army generals (Pershing, Chaffee, Patton, Walker, Sheridan, Abrams, Bradley). The US Army continues to expand the concept with the old Sgt. York and now the Stryker (name for two enlisted Medal of Honor winners).
United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 02:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
M is the Model Number for that vechicle...the British nicknamed the US Tanks, but from what I can recall none of the US veterns from WW2 called them by those names. They where all named after US Civil War Generals for the most part. I beleive that reasoning for the British names are because they where Cruiser tanks and took the C from that. Some names have been recycled (like Challenger) from WW2.
you are correct, even the british sometimes didnt use the nicknames,
for example many called the achilles '17 pounder M10s'
my grandad served in burma, they called them 'general stuarts', 'lee grants', and shermans
cheers
joe
"The machine gun is a much overrated weapon" Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig,Somme,July 1,1916
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won the lottery of Life" Cecil Rhodes
Florida, United States
Joined: December 27, 2001
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 07:20 AM UTC
My guess would be that when the Brits had originally developed the "tank", they wanted to keep it a secret. In so doing they named it a "cistern".
Hey, it's just a guess.
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Bart's chalkboard amercement
Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: January 02, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 09:21 AM UTC
Hi all,
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the sequence was a deliberate system introduced with the Cruiser tanks starting with Covenanter and continuing through to Centurion, but by this time the Cruiser Tank had grown into the Main Battle Tank and the tradition continued with the Chieftain & Challenger 1 & 2.
Vickers continued to apply 'V' names e.g Valiant to its private venture tanks, but none saw frontline service in the British Army
Interestingly the 'A' names Archer, Achilles etc were by and large SP Artillery, this digressed slightly into clerical names e.g Priest, Sexton, Bishop etc but then merged again with the Abbot.
Where AS-90 fits into this is beyond me, surely it should have a name, and I know 'Braveheart' has been applied to the 52 calibre version but is it official?
If anyone can add further I'd love to know.
Happy modelling
Ant
Ant Phillips
Bulldog # 5
Every morning when I wake I thank the Lord I'm Welsh!
Ontario, Canada
Joined: January 22, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 09:43 AM UTC
British tank names are all over the place. The names you've listed, and the theme of starting with a 'C' began when, in July of 1941, Churchill decided to bring in a system of simple names of tanks (I guess he couldn't remember if what an A13 Mk IV*** was). The rule was that all British tank names from that point on would begin with a 'C'. This would explain why the Matilda and Valentine didn't start with a C - they pre-dated this time.
Of course, the Churchill, Convenanter and Crusader also pre-dated July 1941, but I'm not sure if they were called by their common names prior to that date - the Crusader did not appear in battle until around that time, and the Churchill was not seen in great numbers until the fall of 1941.
HTH
Chuck Rothman
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:02 AM UTC
Just to inform you that I have edited the post (which caused such a reaction) . Jim
Utrecht, Netherlands
Joined: July 14, 2003
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My guess would be that when the Brits had originally developed the "tank", they wanted to keep it a secret. In so doing they named it a "cistern".
I hear that the story behind the name "tank" came from the brits trying to keep it a secret. They toled the people working on it that it was a type of watertank. But that could be a lot of nonsence for all I know.
Also I see a lot of our American friends misspell the german word for "vehicle" It's wagen not wagon. Kubbelwagen, panzerkampfwagen (which by the way does mean armoured fighting vehicle), etc.
Regards, Hut
:-)
United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I hear that the story behind the name "tank" came from the brits trying to keep it a secret. They toled the people working on it that it was a type of watertank. But that could be a lot of nonsence for all I know.
you are indeed correct, the workers at the factoy that was making the very first tanks were told they were water tanks, so the name sort of stuck!
cheers
joe
"The machine gun is a much overrated weapon" Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig,Somme,July 1,1916
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won the lottery of Life" Cecil Rhodes
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 29, 2002
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 02:22 AM UTC
I think Guy's,
If my history serves me right, the name 'TANK' was used in WW I when the Brits were designing the male and female 'tank' (Shaped like a Rhombus). Also because the of the Naval influence alot of tank parts are named from bits and pieces of a ship.
I think this is correct but it mat require some research
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 29, 2002
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 02:26 AM UTC
Also..............
Sedimmick These M number thingies used for American tanks Why 2 x M3's???? #:-)
The Honey (Light tank)
&
The Grant/Lee (Medium)
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 02:29 AM UTC
cromwell,
your partly right,
the name tank does come from the nickname given to them by the factory workers,
but another name for them during ww1 was landships, because of the reasons you mention.
the name tank stuck afterwards for some reason
cheers
joe
"The machine gun is a much overrated weapon" Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig,Somme,July 1,1916
"Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won the lottery of Life" Cecil Rhodes
Wales, United Kingdom
Joined: January 02, 2003
KitMaker: 118 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 07:25 AM UTC
Hi Scott,
All US military items are/were given a type number, Army equipment began with an M (for military??) and the first of each type was an M1 then M2 etc.
Hence there is an M1 light tank, an M1 Medium tank, an M1 carbine, an M1 toilet seat I suppose. Sub variants of each type were signified by the suffix A1, A2 etc
In fact sticking with AFV's of WW2 vintage, with the M3 in addition to the Stuart and Lee/Grant there is also the Half Track to consider.
You're not the only one to find this confusing.
Ant Phillips
Bulldog # 5
Every morning when I wake I thank the Lord I'm Welsh!
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 07:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
All US military items are/were given a type number, Army equipment began with an M (for military??) and the first of each type was an M1 then M2 etc.
"M" stood for model. Yes, it is quite confusing when you consider you get:
Tank, Light, Model 3 (aka Stuart)
Tank, Medium, Model 3 (aka Grant/Lee)
Halftrack, Model 3
Submachine Gun, Model 3 (aka Grease Gun)
(most likely even more WW2 era "M3" nomenclatures)
The US finally figured out this was confusing and when the final model of the Stuart tank came out, they called it M5 instead of M4 because everyone already knew the M4 as the medium tank (Sherman).
We still so the confusing number thing with equipment. We now have the M9 9mm pistol, the M9 tank dozer attachment and the M9 Armored Combat Earthmover (ACE).
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: January 04, 2003
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:48 AM UTC
what about lcp and lca etc is their a theme aswell?
well I heard that tank story also.
their is a book. about that subjects it lists all the names and where they come from same with jerrycans a german invention and its a can. pretty nice idea
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Friday, January 23, 2004 - 09:24 AM UTC
As confusing as American equipment is I think British is nearly as bad. Take the Cromwell for example. I see it listed as a MkIV, a cruiser MkVIII, some A number that I can't remember, then all the of numbers that indicate the type of engine or exhuast or such. I think it's a very good thing they started naming them, Cromwell, Crusader, and such.
I wonder what the first American item was the Brits named? Fortress I, Stuart (Honey) or what?
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