_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Peripheral armor news item
Biggles2
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 07:18 PM UTC
Not specifically about armor, but Rommel is mentioned:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/hitlers-all-conquering-stormtroopers-felt-invincible-because-of-crystal-meth-style-drug-pervitin/ar-AAefoCP?li=AA59G3
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 08:05 PM UTC



Old news. This has been common knowledge for years. Stories about this have popped up regularly on the net, as if this is some earth-shattering revelation. Pervitin is an amphetamine and not crystal meth, no different than the "pep pills" available to U.S. combat troops and aircrews. Just another attempt at sensationalizing anything associated with the Third Reich and perpetuating the myth of Nazi supermen.

I'm in no way a fanboy of the WW II German military; but, it gets pretty tiresome to keep seeing references to "Nazi soldiers" when mentioning the Wehrmacht. Surprisingly, a very small percentage of Wehrmacht personnel were members of the NSDAP. Even when one considers the Waffen SS, that is also the case. As a matter of fact, there were more foreign members serving in the WSS than native Germans.
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 09:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm in no way a fanboy of the WW II German military; but, it gets pretty tiresome to keep seeing references to "Nazi soldiers" when mentioning the Wehrmacht. Surprisingly, a very small percentage of Wehrmacht personnel were members of the NSDAP.



"Nazi soldiers" is just a convenient shorthand for "The armed forces of the Third Reich who embraced the Nazi ideology and political aims and willingly acted as their physical agent of aggression and oppression despite the fact that only a small percentage of its personnel were actual NSDAP members."

"Nazi soldiers" rolls off the tongue or keyboard far more easily but everyone still knows what it means.

KL
young_sven
Visit this Community
Skåne, Sweden
Joined: May 14, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 09:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm in no way a fanboy of the WW II German military; but, it gets pretty tiresome to keep seeing references to "Nazi soldiers" when mentioning the Wehrmacht. Surprisingly, a very small percentage of Wehrmacht personnel were members of the NSDAP.



"Nazi soldiers" is just a convenient shorthand for "The armed forces of the Third Reich who embraced the Nazi ideology and political aims and willingly acted as their physical agent of aggression and oppression despite the fact that only a small percentage of its personnel were actual NSDAP members."

"Nazi soldiers" rolls off the tongue or keyboard far more easily but everyone still knows what it means.

KL



Willingly? Hmmm, so no conscripts in the German Army then? Hmmmm.
I have the same problem when all German WW2 soldiers are referred to as Nazis, whether its convenient (ie lazy) or not.
SgtRam
Staff MemberContributing Writer
AEROSCALE
#197
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
Armorama: 2,859 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 09:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


"Nazi soldiers" is just a convenient shorthand for "The armed forces of the Third Reich who embraced the Nazi ideology and political aims and willingly acted as their physical agent of aggression and oppression despite the fact that only a small percentage of its personnel were actual NSDAP members."

"Nazi soldiers" rolls off the tongue or keyboard far more easily but everyone still knows what it means.

KL



Not all American Soldiers are Repulican or Democrats, not all Canadian Soldiers are Liberal or Conservative, but soldiers do what is asked for from there government regardless. They are American Soldiers, Canadian Soldiers, and German Soldiers. Why saying is is "easier to say" is just lazy and adds to misguided stereotyping. Maybe it is type to stop the stereotyping and being lazy. It only takes one person to stop it, yourself.
ironelf
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: January 27, 2010
KitMaker: 235 posts
Armorama: 174 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 10:18 PM UTC
While the article is neither new or that shocking as has been mentioned(although it is interesting), the resulting discussion about Nazism is surprising. A German soldier did not have to be in the Nazi party to commit murder, rape, looting, destruction of property and participate in the Final Solution so arguing about who was and wasn't a Nazi misses the point. The Wehrmacht (all branches) participated in a war of aggression in support of European domination along with the destruction of Bolshevisim and Judaism, and the mass deportation of millions and enslavement of millions more. This, dare I say it, is not in dispute. I hope, at the very least, not on this site.

That the Wehrmacht was co-opted by the Nazi party was made easier by the willingness of the German population at large to go along. While I don't subscribe to Goldhagen's extreme view that all Germans harbored an 'eliminationist antisemitism' deep in their hearts, the works of Browning and Bartov among many clearly show the ideological framework within which Germany conducted the war. It's views on Poles, Slavs, Jews, and generally all Eastern Europeans was clear and unequivocal.

I think we, as modelers, sometimes get caught up in how cool this or that tank is and allow the vile and genocidal underpinnings of the war to fade into the background.

Cheers!

Chris
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 11:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Willingly? Hmmm, so no conscripts in the German Army then? Hmmmm.



Willingness has nothing to do with conscription, it has to do with working together to achieve a shared goal. That is what the Wehrmacht did because they shared with the NSDAP the same goals of revenge for the "stab in the back" by urbanites, socialists, communists, and Jews in 1918; a desire to humiliate France and Britian; the dream of reuniting the Germanic peoples regardless of where they lived; the obliteration of the Polish stain on European geography; and the expansion of the Reich in the only available direction, to the East.

KL
easyco69
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 11:36 PM UTC
Hitler used cocaine eyedrops.
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 11:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not all American Soldiers are Repulican or Democrats, not all Canadian Soldiers are Liberal or Conservative, but soldiers do what is asked for from there government regardless.



Wait a minute . . . I thought my posts had been blocked: "Did someone say something?" Remember that? Ha ha, that was a good laugh . . .

Anyhoo, you are exactly correct: The Wehrmacht did exactly what the Nazi government asked of them, and did it quite well. The problem was that what they were asked to do was plainly wrong. The Wehrmacht knew it was wrong. They could see in their own towns and cities and certainly in the countries that they occupied that it was evil. And they did it anyway.

The thing is this: I'm willing to stipulate that there were zero party members in the Wehrmacht. Now we all know what happened in Europe in 1933 - 1945. Are people trying to argue that it would have been substantially worse if the Wehrmacht was 100% NSDAP members? No. All that would have been different would be the numbers, not the crimes.

KL
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 - 11:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

While the article is neither new or that shocking as has been mentioned(although it is interesting), the resulting discussion about Nazism is surprising. A German soldier did not have to be in the Nazi party to commit murder, rape, looting, destruction of property and participate in the Final Solution so arguing about who was and wasn't a Nazi misses the point. The Wehrmacht (all branches) participated in a war of aggression in support of European domination along with the destruction of Bolshevisim and Judaism, and the mass deportation of millions and enslavement of millions more. This, dare I say it, is not in dispute. I hope, at the very least, not on this site.

That the Wehrmacht was co-opted by the Nazi party was made easier by the willingness of the German population at large to go along. While I don't subscribe to Goldhagen's extreme view that all Germans harbored an 'eliminationist antisemitism' deep in their hearts, the works of Browning and Bartov among many clearly show the ideological framework within which Germany conducted the war. It's views on Poles, Slavs, Jews, and generally all Eastern Europeans was clear and unequivocal.

I think we, as modelers, sometimes get caught up in how cool this or that tank is and allow the vile and genocidal underpinnings of the war to fade into the background.

Cheers!

Chris



Well said sir.

KL
 _GOTOTOP