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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Interesting Centurion version
HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 08:33 PM UTC
http://www.unterirdischeschweiz.ch/86834.html
While googeling about Swiss Bunkers and Fortifications, I found an interesting conversion of Swiss Panzer 55. Swiss Army build some bunkers containing Centurion Mk. 5 turrets with 105 mm L7 gun. To transport and installing the turret in the bunker, and add-on device was developed that has four outriggers and a crane. The whole thing reminds somehow of the Wehrmacht Heuschrecke. So which company takes the chance and and releases the Centurion Retrofit??
P.S. Scroll down on the page.
C_JACQUEMONT
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Loire-Atlantique, France
Joined: October 09, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:21 AM UTC
Very interesting, but one would need good reference to be able to make a model.

Thanks for the link!

Cheers,

Christophe
TankManNick
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California, United States
Joined: February 01, 2010
KitMaker: 551 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 03:32 AM UTC
Holy cow! I cannot believe they are still building static bunkers with tank turrets in 2015!

I thought the idea of bunkers was debunked years ago!
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 05:31 AM UTC
The Centurion bunkers are from the 1990s. And Switzerland has a number of geographic features that make fortifications quite effective for a certain part of the country (Schweizer Reduit).

As with the Maginot (that was circumvented, not broken) but without the monetary and political problems of the Maginot(1), the swiss system is NOT a "thou shall not pass" system or "Chinese wall" but rather a "It will be VERY COSTLY to pass" system.

Short of using nuclear weapons the swiss bunkers, often dug INTO the mountains, are hard to kill and quite effective given the rugged and even for tanks often un-passable terrain.

(1) The french actually had plans to link the Maginots (that would have blocked the Ardennes) AND to extend it to the sea (That would have blocked the route through Belgium). But money was sheduled for post 1940...
M4A3E8Easy8
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Washington, United States
Joined: February 04, 2006
KitMaker: 302 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 06:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Centurion bunkers are from the 1990s. And Switzerland has a number of geographic features that make fortifications quite effective for a certain part of the country (Schweizer Reduit).

As with the Maginot (that was circumvented, not broken) but without the monetary and political problems of the Maginot(1), the swiss system is NOT a "thou shall not pass" system or "Chinese wall" but rather a "It will be VERY COSTLY to pass" system.

Short of using nuclear weapons the swiss bunkers, often dug INTO the mountains, are hard to kill and quite effective given the rugged and even for tanks often un-passable terrain.

(1) The french actually had plans to link the Maginots (that would have blocked the Ardennes) AND to extend it to the sea (That would have blocked the route through Belgium). But money was sheduled for post 1940...



This reminds me of all the hype the tora bora tunnels got during the Afgan war... The russians were stopped.. yes. The US with guided 2000 lb bombs and Fuel Air ordnance walked right through. Fixed defenses may slow a modern attacking army slightly but not more than the time it takes to get a laser guided bomb off the rails and to the ground.

As a note the Maginot line was broken in a few places by German attacks during the campaign. Yes over all it held but it also did not face the main attack. Fixed defense is a thing of the past.
kandahar
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Tokyo-to, Japan / 日本
Joined: December 29, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 10:52 AM UTC
The Maginot Line wasn't actually broken at all. There were some propaganda attacks on defenses which weren't actually part of the line or had been added on and built to a lower standard but the real line was totally impervious to anything the Germans could throw at it. The reason the Line was a failure was that it was bypassed and that it tied up some of the best French troops in the wrong places.
bison126
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Correze, France
Joined: June 10, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 11:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The french actually had plans to link the Maginots (that would have blocked the Ardennes) AND to extend it to the sea (That would have blocked the route through Belgium). But money was sheduled for post 1940...



Probably financial constraints real ones but the most important reason not to extend the Ligne Maginot to the sea was that France didn't think it suitable to build a defensive line at the border with an allied country, namely Belgium.

Olivier
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The french actually had plans to link the Maginots (that would have blocked the Ardennes) AND to extend it to the sea (That would have blocked the route through Belgium). But money was sheduled for post 1940...



Probably financial constraints real ones but the most important reason not to extend the Ligne Maginot to the sea was that France didn't think it suitable to build a defensive line at the border with an allied country, namely Belgium.

Olivier



Didn't that change in the late 30s when there was "political stress/family feud" between France and Belgium over some defence policies and political standings? Or am I mixing up defence lines/wars?
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The Maginot Line wasn't actually broken at all. There were some propaganda attacks on defenses which weren't actually part of the line or had been added on and built to a lower standard but the real line was totally impervious to anything the Germans could throw at it. The reason the Line was a failure was that it was bypassed and that it tied up some of the best French troops in the wrong places.



IIRC the Maginot troops actually where "second grade" in fitness (not training) and one of the reasons for the Line was exactly that - the ability to use conscripts/reservists etc. that where not fit enough / no longer fit enough for field army duty since fixed fortifications are less demanding on mobility etc. than classical infantry duty
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 03:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The Centurion bunkers are from the 1990s. And Switzerland has a number of geographic features that make fortifications quite effective for a certain part of the country (Schweizer Reduit).

As with the Maginot (that was circumvented, not broken) but without the monetary and political problems of the Maginot(1), the swiss system is NOT a "thou shall not pass" system or "Chinese wall" but rather a "It will be VERY COSTLY to pass" system.

Short of using nuclear weapons the swiss bunkers, often dug INTO the mountains, are hard to kill and quite effective given the rugged and even for tanks often un-passable terrain.

(1) The french actually had plans to link the Maginots (that would have blocked the Ardennes) AND to extend it to the sea (That would have blocked the route through Belgium). But money was sheduled for post 1940...



This reminds me of all the hype the tora bora tunnels got during the Afgan war... The russians were stopped.. yes. The US with guided 2000 lb bombs and Fuel Air ordnance walked right through. Fixed defenses may slow a modern attacking army slightly but not more than the time it takes to get a laser guided bomb off the rails and to the ground.

As a note the Maginot line was broken in a few places by German attacks during the campaign. Yes over all it held but it also did not face the main attack. Fixed defense is a thing of the past.



a) The Swiss fortification we are talking about are designed for fighting Cold War USSR/WP forces. And the force attacking them most likely would NOT be the prime forces (Those would attack NATO)

b) Switzerland has an air force and air defence, including stuff like Radar. Something the Taliban where a bit lacking. SAM and AA really tend to reduce the flyboys accuracy.

c) If designating from the ground: That bunker is NOT alone and NOT the first line of defence. Among others it is backed by long ranged artillery in the rear and infantry in front of it. And that region is not exactly "parachute country" nor infiltrator friendly

HermannB
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Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 05:25 PM UTC
For those who are interested in Swiss fortifications and bunkers, there`s some stuff on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUpJTlQvbhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l-OkM0LVis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Numva8I2UV0
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 06:27 PM UTC
Interesting discussion and the link was very informative. Be advised that when I linked to it though,I was immediately attacked by hackers and had to shut down my computer.
J
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