Here is how the M1 Limber builds up from the Scale-Link/Masters Productions/U-Models kit.




The M1 Limber had a modified "Clamping Bracket" permanently attached underneath. The limber would be backed over the closed gun trails, lowered using the screw jack mechanism you see here. Then the clamping bracket would be attached to the trails and the entire assembly would again be cranked up and locked. You were then ready to travel.

The complete model is done in resin with the exception of the rather complex "axle" which comes to you as a white metal casting. Highly recommended.

Here is the inside cover photo from the relatively new Doyle book from Ampersand Publishing that beautifully covers Mack's line of large military trucks. As you can see the Mack NO6* is towing the 155mm "Long Tom" with the M1 Limber attached behind the gun.


The copyrighted photo shown here is the property of David Doyle and Ampersand Publishing. It is reproduced here for discussion purposes only.



(Ya gotta hang on to that Limber in case you need to move the gun with a different tractor next time!)

* Just as an F.Y.I.; the "NO" in the designation "Mack NO6" does not mean "Mack #6". Just as the GM designations CCKW and DUKW imply year of production, 3 axle, all-wheel drive, etc. In the manufacturing parlance of the Mack Company the NO stands for various production considerations such as 3 axle, all-wheel drive. The number 6 does indicate that this final design was the sixth variation presented to the military.

You can also try R&J Enterprises...

I do get it that miljoko, the gentleman who originally started this thread is actually looking for info on the larger 240mm gun and not the 155mm "Long Tom".

However, partly because of this confusion, so much incorrect information has been reported here that I felt it necessary to continue this thread, talking about wheels for the 155mm "Long Tom", just as the title of this topic indicates, in order to try and stop the spread of this confusion any further.

I hope I have not offended anyone.

Cheers

Michael,
You haven't offended me for sure, I was responding to Bob Read's recent inquiry asking if the AFV Club Long Tom kit could represent a Korean War vintage Long Tom based on the tires in the kit. As I mentioned there are photos in both issue 13 of Ampersands Axis and Allied and their HST books showing those tires in use during the Korean War on M59s, although there don't seem to be any photos of M59s with just the military tires alone. However there are photos in the books of other equipment including Artillery with tires just being the military type. Interestingly, there is even one photo which seems to show three different types of tires, the military type, the civilian type and one with a cross-checked tread (similar to the 240mm tires-- but let's not go there) on one individual M59 in 1950 in the Utah NG). My experience In the military tells me there are exceptions to every rule, so it would not be inconceivable to see an M59 with just the military tires during the Korean War, although as you have indicated, tire stocks of civilian tires likely lasted quite a while, and as I indicated, yes-- and no, the AFV kit could be built out of the box to represent a Korean War Long Tom.
VR Russ

Thank you for your kind response.

I have in the past communicated both my surprise and disappointment to AFV Club that they would choose to model the Korean war M59 rather than the earlier WWII version of the Long Tom which would have included the proper civilian tires.

US Army 8 inch Howitzer showing off her brand new set of non-directional tires just this year!

On permanent display at the Nicholas County Courthouse, Carlisle, Kentucky.



Another 8 inch gun this time shod in civilian tires - Patton Museum Event, Ft. Knox, Kentucky 2003.

( Mike Koenig photos.)

Nice film of troops emplacing the Long Tom as another M4 HST and M1 gun roll past:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUuqJUJkPCc

Michael,
I was told by an artillery officer friend of mine some years back that AFV club copied M59s with M5 limbers in ROC service because that's what they could get access to in Taiwan. Given at the time scale "real rubber" tires were all the rage when the kit was produced, and given the difficulties of casting "rubber" scale civilian tires, it was likely just easier to make the uncomplicated heavy tread pattern. What I don't understand is why AFV club who owns Hobby Fan ( or it might be the other way around) hasn't reissued the 155 or 8" gun with civilian tires in resin-- Hobby Fan makes some really great obscure resin kits (And expensive too-- they even have a CIWS and two versions of the Lance Missile/transport- I think the resin line is actually more extensive than the plastic line). They also make resin Artillery crews. Personally, I have the OOP resin civilian tires and M4 limber for my M59 kit, but the casting could have been better. Seems a simple task for AFV club to do this, but I guess they don't see any profit in it.
VR Russ

Michael, I'm always trying to add to my information on tire production. What were the source documents for the above statements? Would it be possible to get copies?

Thx,
KL

Well Kurt, I guess I have to say "ya got me". I don't have solid references for what I was saying about WWII and Korean War tire production.

I know I read somewhere that the war department allowed for the use of the civilian truck tires due to limited availability of that size military tire and the scarcity of rubber at the time. As shown above, the wartime TM's illustrate both the old M1 Limber and the newer M5 Limber as still using the civilian tires.

I can show it in a quotation from a Tech Manual that the 155mm Long Tom, the 8 inch gun and the M-23 ammo trailer all used the same interchangeable wheels and tires.

The statement about tire production during the Korean War comes from the simple deduction (perhaps incorrect) that while in photos you do see many guns using the non-directional military tires you also see many using the civilian tires. Also in the Allied-Axis book #30 it shows a number of Korean War era brand new M-23 ammo trailers in use or as being prepped, all of them shod in civilian tires with multiple civilian tread patterns. So it is clear that production of that tire in the non-directional military tread was still not meeting demand.

Apologies if I crossed the line on this one!

Close up of Scale-Link back date wheel set for the AFV 155mm Long Tom.


(This is the set which is just the ten wheels and tires WITHOUT the M1 Limber. As said above the tread pattern on the other civilian wheel set is different.)

This is the M1 I've been working on with wheels from Hussar Productions. I got mine from Air Connection.

These look excellent! With even a bit of sidewall lettering. Cool

The tires are one thing, but how about the wheels themselves. Were the 5 hole ones correct at all or should they always be 6 holes?

Colour me confused......
Bob

Bob you raise a very good point! I never even noticed that on the Scale-Link wheels one is a five hole and the other a six (both with ten lugs).

The gun up in Carlisle, KY has six hole wheels so I assume that is the correct standard. However I must say that military (and civilian) wheels were coming from more than one supplier so there could be variations between manufacturers.

[quote]This is the M1 I've been working on with wheels from Hussar Productions. I got mine from Air Connection.
quote]

Those are good looking wheels. How is the quality?

I think the 6 hole pattern is typical of the "Bud" wheel system adopted by the Army for use on most trucks. Wheels with 5 holes would be the exception.

There was some discussion among the MVPA truck owners years ago about the use of civilian pattern tires on trailers. From what I recall the belief at the time was that using the military tread tires on trailers, towed artillery etc was non-value added. The towed unit is along for the ride so put the "good" tires on the powered unit. However, they were just guessing.

The idea of "put the best tires (most traction) on the hauler makes perfect sense!

Below is a wartime photo showing the M1 Long Tom still with civilian tires but the M5 Limber in between has military, non-directional tires.


F.Y.I. - the gun itself has the early, top mounted pulley for pulling the barrel in and out of battery.

Location? Italy, Sicily, Corsica?? Can't really say. All we know is it's ten to five, right out in front of Giovanni's Beauty Salon. Do the berets mean these guys are part of a Free French unit?

Randall the Budd wheel just means the wheel center is permanently attached to the wheel rim (as on most US cars) unlike the Dayton wheel which has a cast and spoked wheel center that unbolts around the edge from the rim like many (not all) US heavy trucks.

However I have seen Budd type wheels that only have two holes in them others with three, four, five or six.

I think the question really is: did the US Army have a standard of five or six holes in this size wheel or did they have such a standard at all?

To that I do not know the answer; but I hope someone out there does.

As I said earlier the 8 inch gun up in Carlisle, KY has the ten lug, six hole, Budd wheels.


(Last year's tires before replacement.)

Mike

p.s. I have also seen heavy dump trucks and school busses that have Daytons on the front and Budd dualies on the rear. Go figure.

Folks,
Hopefully not to muddy up the waters any more, there is a pretty good explanation of WWII US Military tires and why civilian tires were used-- it really comes down to the shortage or rubber. Here's the explanation at US Army Models backed up by official documents which look fairly well researched :

Notes on Usage

Given its druthers, the Army would have used Combat tires exclusively on all tactical vehicles and equipment; in fact this was specified in 1941 (OCM 17285). However, the increased cost, greater rubber usage, and reduction in production capacity of Combat tires prevented their uniform employment. Reductions in the application of Combat tires were authorized as the rubber supply situation became acute in the late 1944:

In June 1943, AA gun carriages were changed to standard construction highway tread tires but retained their divided rims (OCM 20890).
OCM 25163 from September 1944 authorized the substitution of standard construction tires on the M10 ammunition trailer.
A number of changes to equipment tire requirements were made in the fall of 1944 by OCM 25531, in the interest of conserving rubber and reducing the types of tires in service. Primarily, it changed the tread type from HW to MS while maintaining the existing construction on the following:
M4A1 37mm gun carriage
M3A2 105mm and M3A3 75mm howitzer carriages
3 and 3-½ ton cargo and M51 machine gun trailers
M10 ammunition trailer, M6 3-inch gun, and M2A2 105mm howitzer carriages
M1A1 90mm AA mount
M23 ammunition trailer, M1 8-inch howitzer and M1 155mm gun carriages
M2, M3, and M5 limbers
M21 ammunition trailer, M1A1 4.5-inch gun and M1A1 155mm howitzer carriages
M2 90mm AA gun mount, M2 and M3 155mm gun carriages

Additionally, the M1 120mm AA gun mount went from 13.00-24 HW to 14.00-24 MS.
In December 1944, standard construction MS tires were allowed as substitutes for Combat MS tires on the M21 ammunition trailer (OCM 26037).
Finally, in late December 1944, OCM 26109 allowed the substitution of HW tread tires for MS tread tires as needed, but preference for MS tires was to be given to motor vehicles.

HW=Civil Highway, MS=Military

The Military tires were actually "run flat" tires and were intended to function after damage-- the civil tires were not. There's a great photo showing the difference between the Military "run-flat" tires and their civilian counterparts. more can be found at:

www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/TIRES.html

VR, Russ

Thank you sir. Seems like excellent information!

Michael,
Just to clear things up a bit, the M1 and M1A1 Carriages refers to the Long Tom which did not become known as the M59 until after WWII, This is according to Ampersand's Allied and Axis, Issue 13, page 35. Now can anyone address Bob Read's question about the 5 hole vs 6 hole wheels?-- I've seen photos of both, and I know that in the early 40's, the US Army had one hole hubs on 105mm Howitzers. Perhaps a function of when they were manufactured? It seems reasonable that if we were conserving steel, or lightening weight (or both) more holes would appear in the hubs as the war went on-- but that's just a guess on my part.
VR, Russ

Regarding 5 hole hubs--I just noticed something interesting in this thread-- the first photo of the Mack NO at the beginning of the thread has 5 hole hubs on the front. I don't know if the Mack NO used the same wheels as on the Long Tom, I doubt it, but there you go-- 5 hole wheels on a prime mover.
VR, Russ

165,

That has a catchy sound to it.

"Budd" was a system to attach the wheels to the hub of the axle. The inner dual wheel was attached using socket type lug bolts that are threaded inside and out with a flared opening and a square end. The outer wheel was attached using lug nuts that threaded over the socket lug. This way the outer wheel could be removed with out loosening up the inner wheel.

I got a lecture from an old Vet at an MVPA show ages ago. He did have a nice truck. The best way to ID the system is to look at the rear lugs and see if the ends are square.

That's incorrect. As stated in the article, the tire tread style and tire construction were independent (except for MD Military Desert tires). HW meant Highway tread while MS meant Mud and Snow tread and the construction was either Standard or Combat. This is essential to understanding OCM 25531: For the equipment listed the construction remained the same while the tread was changed from Highway to Mud and Snow.

The difference in rubber usage between HW and MS tires was not as significant as the difference between standard and combat construction.

I recommend that anyone interested sit down and read the linked article (which I wrote).

The correct URL is http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Tires/tires.html.

KL