Bergepanther with Panzer IV turret
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Friday, November 06, 2015 - 12:32 AM UTC
My next build will be the one-off conversion of a Bergepanther with a bolted-on Panzer IV turret, one of the few interesting vehicles that belonged to PzJg. Abt. 653.
The base kit will be Revell's Bergepanther and the Panzer parts come from Dragon. I will throw a PE set for Panther Ausf D. from ET Model
Assembly is straightforward and the fit of parts is good, too.
The only let down has to be the tracks. Detail looks good and they are indy links, but the guide horns are solid and there are two pin marks on the outer face on each and every link, nearly impossible to remove, I guess some pigments will hide these pin marks.
The upper hull is dry fitted and the gap in the front disappears as soon as you push the the two pieces together, so no worries there.
Thanks for watching
Christos
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Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
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KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 10:42 PM UTC
More work done on the Bergepanther; Rear stowage bins installed, upper and lower hulls mated, installed engine grills and air intakes.
All comments and suggestions welcome.
Thanks
Christos
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Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 12:21 AM UTC
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 01:34 AM UTC
Figure Painting Moderator - Genessis Models
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 08:16 AM UTC
Hummm...The kit conversion is cool. The real vehicle I wonder about. There wasn't any Panther turrets available at the repair depot? Custom conversions would be costly in man hours. Custom mounted turret ring, ammoracks etc... Did the tank remain in service as a bergepanther with a turret upgrade instead of the box sides it normally had? That would make the maintenance section happier.
I also found another picture of this tank on a rail car. I Google imaged Pz Jg Abt 653 and there is ,in the photo,s, one with a Porsche Tiger 1 on one rail car with the panther on the next car back
The page the photo was associated with said it might be a bergepanther converted to a command tank and the turret could not traverse.
Msgt Retired USMC
M48/ M60A1/ M1A1
Semper Fi!
Florida, United States
Joined: March 30, 2006
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 10:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hummm...The kit conversion is cool. The real vehicle I wonder about. There wasn't any Panther turrets available at the repair depot? Custom conversions would be costly in man hours. Custom mounted turret ring, ammoracks etc... Did the tank remain in service as a bergepanther with a turret upgrade instead of the box sides it normally had? That would make the maintenance section happier.
I also found another picture of this tank on a rail car. I Google imaged Pz Jg Abt 653 and there is ,in the photo,s, one with a Porsche Tiger 1 on one rail car with the panther on the next car back
The page the photo was associated with said it might be a bergepanther converted to a command tank and the turret could not traverse.
The early Bergepanthers didn't have box sides. They were merely Panther Ausf. D hulls with the turret ring closed by a wooden deck. As for the man-hours required, the 653rd had some down time, and their maintenance company went a little nuts and built this thing. They also mated a quad 20 mm with a T-34 chassis.
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 06:35 PM UTC
@Mike
Glad you like it, thanks!
@Greg
The early Bergepanthers were practically turretless Panthers; no winch, no spade, just a pilzen crane.
The 653rd had three Bergepanthers to help them out with recovery operations, but the Ferdinands were too heavy for a panther to tow. Eventually, the bergepanthers were replaced by recovery versions of the Ferdidand (Dragon calls their kit "Bergepanzer Tiger(P)). The bergepanthers were converted; one received the Pz IV turret and served as the command tank of the recovery platoon and the other two received Flakvierlings. In addition to these, the 653rd specifically request to be issued one Tiger(P) to be the command tank. Maintaining the Tiger(P) was no issue as it was almost identical to the Ferdinands of the unit. Moreover, the 653rd converted one T-34 to Flakpanzer with Flakvierling and they even made a turret out of scavenged parts from an SdKfz 250/251 (don't quite remember which one exactly) and removed the turret out of a couple more T-34s and converted them to ammunition carriers. They also captured a running KV-85 and also removed its turret and used it for transport and ammunition carrying duties.
Looks like they had lots of time, but also a very skilled maintenance team.
As far as the Bergepanther is concerned, the turret was bolted-on and the whole vehicle had to traverse for the gunner to aim and fire the gun, which wasn't an issue for the experienced crews of the tank destroyers.
@Gerald
You are right, they did have a quiet period of about 2.5 months and that's when they made their conversions!
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 06:38 PM UTC
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Posted: Monday, November 16, 2015 - 07:30 PM UTC
Me, I would have also had them put in the turret ring. I always like to spin my turret.
Msgt Retired USMC
M48/ M60A1/ M1A1
Semper Fi!
Arizona, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:53 PM UTC
Great work on a very interesting subject.
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 04:18 PM UTC
@Greg
I thing that would require more work! Moreover, these guys were trained to traverse the whole vehicle to fire the gun, a spinning turret would give them headaches!
@Robert
Thank you for the good word, much appreciated!
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Posted: Friday, November 20, 2015 - 01:07 PM UTC
Christos,
Nice progress!! This tank was offered by CyberHobby OOB.
The actual Bergepanther was from 653rd, and they had another Berge Ausf D with a 37mm Flak, and a russ. T-34 w/ a 2cm quad flak.
This actual tank had the turret fixed, and was used as a command tank for the Elephant TD's they had.
They also had the Porsche Tiger as a command tank, also from Dragon/DML
Enjoy the conversion.
PS: You might want to check referances on the turret armor.
Todd
"HAAA YOU THINK THIS CAR IS BAD,,MY OTHER ONE ONLY HAS TWO WHEELS'
In War...., Everybody Loses something!!
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Arkansas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2009
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Posted: Friday, November 20, 2015 - 01:58 PM UTC
Very interesting. I have seen a photo of a Panther, with a Pz.III turret. I was unaware of any mounting the IV's turret.
Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 01:12 PM UTC
@Todd
Thank you for the good word! The Bergepanther was recovery platoon leader's vehicle, but it did not any extra radio equipment. The Tiger(P) on the contrary was a proper command vehicle and it had all the necessary radio equipment to serve as the battalion's command tank. Regarding the turret schurzen, I am following the cyberhobby interpretation, but more importantly, Tom Cockle has helped me a lot and has given me updated information, so hopefully it is as accurate as possible.
@Matt
I am very interested to see that picture of the Pz III turret on the Panther, that would be another interesting conversion!!
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Posted: Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 01:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
@Matt
I am very interested to see that picture of the Pz III turret on the Panther, that would be another interesting conversion!!
I believe the book is in Florida. I am in the middle of moving to Arkansas. I will ask my dad to look for it.
Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 02:15 PM UTC
Thanks, much appreciated!
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Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 05:09 PM UTC
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 - 01:51 AM UTC
Great guns Christos! Looking forward to seeing this with paint on.
Bill
http://panzersinscale.blogspot.com/
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 - 04:10 PM UTC
Hi Bill,
Apologies for the late reply! Thank you very much for the good word, glad you like it so far!
Progress is slow, but I have primed the beast and should move along nicely from this point forward!
Thanks for watching
Christos
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Joined: November 03, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 - 05:48 PM UTC
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 12:09 AM UTC
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 12:34 AM UTC
Looks great I am thinking of putting a panzer IV turret on a Panther too! cheers and happy modelling.
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 191 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 12:52 AM UTC
Hi David,
Thank you for the good word, glad you like it!
Just a heads up, you will need a Bergepanther hull (based on Panther Ausf D) and a Pz IV Ausf H turret
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Joined: April 25, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 09:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
@Mike
Glad you like it, thanks!
@Greg
The early Bergepanthers were practically turretless Panthers; no winch, no spade, just a pilzen crane.
The 653rd had three Bergepanthers to help them out with recovery operations, but the Ferdinands were too heavy for a panther to tow. Eventually, the bergepanthers were replaced by recovery versions of the Ferdidand (Dragon calls their kit "Bergepanzer Tiger(P)). The bergepanthers were converted; one received the Pz IV turret and served as the command tank of the recovery platoon and the other two received Flakvierlings. In addition to these, the 653rd specifically request to be issued one Tiger(P) to be the command tank. Maintaining the Tiger(P) was no issue as it was almost identical to the Ferdinands of the unit. Moreover, the 653rd converted one T-34 to Flakpanzer with Flakvierling and they even made a turret out of scavenged parts from an SdKfz 250/251 (don't quite remember which one exactly) and removed the turret out of a couple more T-34s and converted them to ammunition carriers. They also captured a running KV-85 and also removed its turret and used it for transport and ammunition carrying duties.
Looks like they had lots of time, but also a very skilled maintenance team.
As far as the Bergepanther is concerned, the turret was bolted-on and the whole vehicle had to traverse for the gunner to aim and fire the gun, which wasn't an issue for the experienced crews of the tank destroyers.
@Gerald
You are right, they did have a quiet period of about 2.5 months and that's when they made their conversions!
The early Bergepanthers were replaced by the one with winches. The 653rd did not receive them and the early versions, so since they were not useful in their intended use they were converted. They used five FAMO backtracked to move one Ferdinand on good roads! A Ferdinand the was too stuck was destroyed, that was the cause of most losses.
The Bergepanzer(P)s were constructed at the same time the Ferdinands were upgraded and renamed as Elefants.
Formerly known as AikinutNY
Dodecanese, Greece / Ελλάδα
Joined: April 04, 2015
KitMaker: 195 posts
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Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2015 - 12:01 PM UTC
Hi Jim,
You are right about the early Bergepanthers, which could not tow the much heavier Ferdinands, but the Bergepanzer(P) (introduced Sep '43) were sent to the unit before the upgrade to "Elefant". In fact, when the Ferdinands were upgraded to Elefants, the Bergepanzers were also upgraded and received zimmerit and MG34 mounts for close defence (March 1944).
HTH
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