Hello everyone and Merry Christmas! I am a car guy/figure painter and know those subjects well. Cold war, not so much. The other day on Facebook, someone posted a build of the P-40 Longtrack. Awesome beast of a model and a little research online later, I'm am now waiting for my own to show up. Also bought a 2K11 Krug, a UAZ-452 minibus and a DKW 91/6 Munga vehicle to help emphasize scale on a diorama. Oh ...also a half dozen figures. (merry christmas indeed!).

The setting will be in the 70's. I pretty much have the main details laid out with the main vehicles setting up along an open country, boundry fence at ease. A little artistic license must be used just to keep all of this in one small 20"x 14" area. That's why I need a fence. Luckily, having the Long track on a tall mound of earth will showcase the model even if it's in the background. Here is my question: Is it more plausible to have a UN scout team in their Munga "visit" the site (other side of the border fence) and did they have white vehicles and blue hats/helments back in the 70's? Or would it be a NATO team? If NATO, what type/color head wear would they have in the 70's?
If my vehicle terminology is off, cut me some slack...I'm a 60 year old lifetime modeler...attempting to try a new subject and figured I'd ask those that know.

Hi Jack,

I am not sure if the Soviets would let NATO get this close to their equipment. These machines also usually operated normally in the open field. Not sure how that would allow for a fence to be in your diorama. If you mean the iron curtain, well that was significantly bigger than just a fence. If you would use a UN mission as a story for a diorama, you need to have an actual mission where the Soviet would have deployed this type of radar. I cannot think of one to be honest.

Talking about dioramas in general and having built he P40 myself: The less vehicles in a diorama the better. If you put in too many you get the parking lot effect and they will distract from the main vehicle, your P40.

Good luck with the P40 (it is a challenge)

Matthijs

Hi Jack,

Merry Christmas!

You need a LOT of artistic freedom!

There were heaps of rules for military activities close to the Inner Deutsche Grenze. To avoid conflicts on both side asigned NATO units kept control over this at 'our' side. And visits by car were near to impossible due to the set up of the eastern part. At the Warshaw Pact side there were lanes between the fences where small vehicles and motorcycles patrolled, but there were not seen too often.
E.g. if we, as young Dutch officers paid a visit to the fence, we had to wear our civil clothing and walked there by foot. All under the control of some UK officers, who stayed at a distance from the fences.
Ironically, these officers told us that 'the other side' was very well informed, despite our lack of uniforms. Some of the staff members from the East German Army were even well recognized and known by name.
And an rocket artillery system near the fence?! That would even come to political levels in our capitals!!!!

And a UN team would never go there at all.

Nevertheless, I hope you will enjoy building a (fictive) scene and share it with us.

Cheers,

P.

Thanks for taking the time! Perhaps I will leave that concept behind.....
About the same time (77), I remember leaving ports in our 640 class 'boomer'and there would often be a Russian Trawler (w/ lots of antennas)fishing in the middle of the channel. Not doing anything but harassing us by narrowing the gap. Figured maybe the same thing happened on land. They would push the envelope by being as far 'west' as possible without crossing the line. Then the West side always making sure the line was not crossed. My Idea was two guys in a Munga, (UN,NATO,Bundeswehr ?) riding along the border on routine patrol discovering the new site being erected and "discussing" with a Russian officer if some of his equipment was over the line. Even if it was out in the middle of a field somewhere. Like you need to move this barrel and trash 3 meters back according to our maps. Both sides knowing damn well the barrel was purposely put over the line...just to annoy the other side. Micro aggression's being argued while macro aggression's (radar and launcher) are ignored.
All of this was really just to make a humorous focal point to the real stars. The radar and launcher models are amazing on their own. I look forward to my one and only armor diorama project, even without the visitors. Plus my base can shrink 3" in width.
The other side of me says..who cares? You'll spend $700+ with a case, have fun with it. I already bought the figures and extra heads. Just don't take it to a competition. Plenty of time to make those decisions. I don't even have the models yet.

Having never been there, I don't know how boundaries were defined back then across large areas along East/West sections. I did see on You tube how these systems were in the wide open areas. Not hidden among trees/buildings.etc. Thanks and this is why I came here. To get a feel for the area and time.

Jack this may help with why your idea may not work, notice the distance.




Photos for discussion only

I hope these help you with your idea

this might be some nice inspiration

http://www.16va.be/sa-4_eng.html

Yikes!

Time to rethink the deployment of the radar and missile sites. If the sites were semi-permanent once set up, Where did watch standers eat/sleep? Were they driven to the site? Temp barracks? Tents? I have one photo showing the radar parked on a man-made mound as high as the P-40 itself. Most of the vids just show the vehicles crossing the countryside.

posted before I saw this. Time to read and thanks for the link.

Hi Jack,

hopefully we didn't kill a lot of modeling fun?!
To your understanding: at the East German side the locals were only allowed to be in the border area with special permisions. That border area could be up to 10 kilometers from the actual fences.
Military activities, on both sides, were very, very limited. Just to avoid trouble. in case we had FTX's the NATO participants always kept a very large gap of 20 km or more from the Inner Deutsche Grenze.
But you now certainly have understood that that border system was nothing like a simple fence between two systems. Even an US prison is peanuts compared to tha line with mines, electrical wiring, guards, steel plates fences and alike.

I am sure you will find a subject! In case you want to mix East and West a Britmix subject would do?

Read about the U.S Military Liaison Mission in Berlin and East Germany. We had all kinds of access to their facilities and exercises, as did they to ours. It would certainly facilitate your idea.

I came hear for advice and to learn and I'm glad I did. Even if it was the same drivers, years,etc, there is no way a Ferrari F1 car raced at LeMans. Even if Ferrari was at LeMans! I was aware of the Berlin wall. A few documentries today and I understand just how wide and long that no man's land actually was. The Link offered, also brought back memories of classified photos I would see as a Sonar Supervisor of various Soviet Subs. Photos were rare and often poor. Now you look at Google earth and can see every road going to a sub base right down to the dumpster for trash! However there may not be lots of photos showing an installation from the 70's.
When you start a diorama, every face /pose tells a story, so the only bad part to this is about $80 worth of very specific figures I was going to modify. But the hours spent going through all figures is not wasted because you learn the products available from the vendors. So it was great fun indeed. You may find this hard to believe...but I have bought things for my projects and they are still on the shelf along with other kits. It's only day four of planning so there's a long road ahead. I will have more questions and I know who to ask. That's a big part of it

Received my P=40 Longtrack and I was quite happy with the contents. Also used to the short comings of resin kits. Always look at these as 90% kits. They give you the big stuff, but many times it will be easier to replace parts than to clean up resin parts like a tube for example. Step one was to open the door to the radar consoles. This just deserves to be taken up a notch. Time to start taking photos for a build thread. One more thing. As you scan the builds and study other peoples techniques, you often see the flaws and just know how you'll do "better". Then you get the parts in hand and just laugh realizing how everything changes when the parts are 1/8" in size.

Good luck with your diorama! You've selected some interesting vehicles, which is a great start.

I disagree with the fact that military movement were limited. The town of Coburg was the Garrison of a German Bundesgrenzschutz (Border Police) Abteilung and a detachment of US army Border Patrol. There was always a company of either MBT, CFV and even artillery based there. There was a no go zone for US heavy equipment about 3 km from the border. But patrols, riding on M151 and M998, together with Bundesgrenzschutz officers on Volkswagen T3 buses, stood eye-to-eye with the DDR Grenztruppen. BGS Alouettes and Army Cobras and Kiowas were constantly in the air. A colleague of mine from East Germany, hwo was an officer with the Grenztruppen said that on day, when a Cobra was close to a watchtower, he ordered to show a RPM machine on the tower, forcing the Cobra to turn away. Oh Glory Days that were.

Hey Jack,
In terms of proximity to the Grenze it was v. Similar in some ways to a DMZ, in extremis it's strength as a deterrent lay in acting as a mutually agreed and accepted impediment between either side from an escalation to a visible and menacing checkpoint Charlie style face offs between tanks or etcetera. Just a thought here, but there was a tri- national operation conducted behind the "Iron Curtain" in the DDR itself which was an overt/ covert spying mission conducted on behalf of the commanders in chief of the British, American and French zones of occupation or whatever they were called a week last Tuesday ( there was also a soviet equivalent touring West Germany) anyway, basically it consisted of an all terrain vehicle full of spooks who drove around East Germany winking out the troop dispositions of the Soviet group of forces... Google "Brixmis"... Well worth looking into
What I'd envisage is the aforementioned P-40 on a rail flat or loading platform ( they were mostly tarped during transportation) being photographed by a British/ French/ American contingent in barrack dress greens.
Might be of interest, also, as a car modelling guy, the Brits toured in highly modified Mercedes Benz Geländewagen (G-wagon) models modified to look like GAZ 4x4s or Trabants (depending on headlight configurations) at a distance or at night.
Jon

This sort of fascinating exchange is why Armorama is such an interesting and useful site. This series of posts reminds me of the experience of a friend when he was an Army journalist in Germany. Great stuff.

http://tankandafvnews.com/2016/01/20/the-united-states-military-liaison-mission-its-tri-mission-partners-and-the-quest-for-the-holy-grail/#more-4588

interesting article relating to efforts to get the scoop on the T-64
by the respective intel agencies.

Sean