OK, Soviet WWII tank and AV experts, modelers, and fans! Some help on a Soviet-era giant would be greatly appreciated!

I am building a Trumpeter 1/35 KV-2 "Big Turret" early kit (kit 00311, IIRC).

I have found that Panzer Art makes and sells a set of resin "square fuel drums" intended as fender add-ons for these earlier KV 1 and 2 tanks. The PA kit is labeled "Early fuel drums for Soviet KV-1 / KV-2 tanks" - item RE35-146.

Given their size - approx. 15mm x 15mm x 10mm high, I would guess that they could represent something like a 100L box-shaped "drum". Each box has a pair of straps and turn-buckles that would clamp it down to a fender, a distinct filler cap on top, and a wire handle at each end. Overall, they look pretty nice and, frankly, plausibly Russian WWII, to me. Pictures of this set are easily seen on eBay or by Googling "Soviet tank gas cans" or other such searches.

But... I have searched the web looking at KV pics and have not been able to find any WWII era photos showing any such square gas cans mounted on any Russian tanks... So I'm HERE looking for any information about these gas cans and, ideally, some pointer at a photo showing them in use on something. They LOOK good, but I would really love to know that these were actually made and used!

Help, please!

Bob

Hey Bob,

They were made and used. My info is that they were 50gal fuel/oil tanks. They were only fitted for a few months around the third quarter of 1941. Hopefully Niel Stokes might chime in as the information I have on them is from his book.

Here is a link showing them mounted on a KV-2 but they were used on the KV-1 as well.

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/kv/kv-2/kv-2-2.htm

So, probably not suitable to the early KV "big turret".

Hi Bob,

those square tanks were NEVER mounted on any of KV-2s as the "standard factory-installed equipment" (especially on the "Big Turret" KV-2s - their production was stopped long before these square tanks appeared), but they were used on KV-1s.

The photos of captured KV-2 are a bit "misleading" - as the captured unites were heavily modified by the Germans.

The photo of the KV-2 with the tanks fitted does not appear to be a German modified KV, does it?

Actually it does. There were several types of modifications that Germans did with the captured KV-2, which basically fall into 2 categories:

1. Slight modifications.

Were usually performed close to the battle ground, involved modifications that did not require significant work. Usually just added some aux equipment for the machines to carry more fuel, sometimes changed Russian DT-29s into MGs (very rarely seen on KV-2 in particular and early war trophies in general as the amount of captured weapons and ammo was quite significant, etc.

Photos of such slightly-modified tanks we do see at the page that was referred to earlier in the thread.

There also are some visual clues that support the fact that these tanks were modified by the Germans, e.g. most of the pictures referenced show a 1940 version of KV-2 (can be easily identified by the early type toolboxes on top of the fenders and the gun mask of early type) - which the square cans (put there by the Germans) were not used in manufacturing before 1941.

2. Severe (significant) modifications.

The only well-known vehicles which had such modifications were from PzAbt. z.b.V. 66. They did undergo quite a number of mods:

- commander cupola was added
- rack with spare shells was installed in the back
- wiring and German-type Notek lamps were installed
- added tools with german clamps + spare tracks on the fenders, etc.

there are usually being referred to as the "only" German-modified KV-2s, but technically this is not accurate.

Wow! Just what "The Doctor" hoped for!

Thanks for that link to those great pics of the KV-2, Peter!

And yes, there is clear photo evidence for those square gas cans (and if they were supposed to be 50 gal - OK, although I would have guessed from comparing the kitted bits to "200L" fuel drums that they were somewhat less, but... NOBODY was going to lift up a full one and park it on the fender with those wire handles in either size case! ), so... Hurray! At least sort of.

Sad to see that apparently these containers were only produced from or in 1941 - so could not legitimately appear on the "early KV-2" with the first-model turret, which came along in 1939-40. Darn! At least not on one used in 1940...

But... Hey! I'm also going to do one of those later KV-2, so there they can and will go! But, maybe I'll "imagine" that my "early" was still in service in mid-1941 (hmmm. In time for Barbarossa - and thus within the putative time-frame of these cans...)

Thanks for the info and discussion, guys! This is what Armorama and its participants are all about!

Cheers!

Bob

Phil, look at the picture. The KV-2 with the tanks clearly has the later type stowage boxes. Nothing else is clear from these photos. Other photos of this tank also show the later gun mantlet. No German modifications are present.

The photo was mainly to show Bob that the tanks were used.

You are welcome Bob.

I was referring to the 3rd picture from the top - the rearmost stowage box on the right side is clearly the early type (no side "triangles"). Could not go together with 2 boxes on the right fender - it started to appear since Feb 1941.

Also - check this site out http://kv1ehkranami.narod.ru/kv2.html - this is a great reference with pictures of nearly all KV-2 produced (130 out of 204 total) in "as served" or "as just captured" state. Not one of them is carrying the square boxes - they were simply not installed at factory.

OK. Now that I know that 1) there actually were such square gas cans made and perhaps installed on some KV-2 at some point in 1941+... But 2) apparently NOT these on any of those several "early" -2 with the slope-front prototype-style turret...

Does anyone have any opinion, information, and / or advice about ANY sort of add-on Soviet fuel-can or drum(s) being used on the early KV-1 / KV-2 tanks - something that I could "legitimately" add onto my early for service before Barbarossa?

And... Were they ever used on any other Soviet vehicles - maybe on T-34, T-26, some BA-6 or -10 AC, some Sov truck?

Do any of you know of any "closer-up" pics of these cans themselves? I gather that they could have been used for either fuel or motor-oil - and I would love to see anything to help inform my paint-up!

Thanks!

Bob

I can offer an opinion. You could use a 200gl fuel drum or tanks from the BT series of AFVs.

The cans you have were manufactured starting in June 1941 and consisted of sheet metal box with metal straps holding them to the fenders. At least one probably would have been used for oil as early Soviet tanks burned so much that oil consumption limited their range almost as much as fuel. Sorry, no close ups though

Thanks, Peter!

The 200L drums I can find (have many of)... I like the notion of using something borrowed from the BT line-up. But what sort of fuel/gas/oil cans or tanks or boxes were used on the BT's? I'll gladly "go there" if there is something out that I could use!

I have seen some BT-7 kit builds with long boxes on one or both fenders... and have seen a great walk-around set of a preserved BT-7 with those same long fender boxes (seen at http://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/soviet-cavalry-tank-bt-7-walk/). These boxes look like they are welded sheet-metal with straps to hold them down and have what looks to be a filler-cap on top at one end of each. Are these fuel-boxes?

PS: Yes, I've heard and read in various forums that Sov WWII tanks often used a LOT of oil, and that some "fuel" cans were actually oil cans. The KV tanks come to mind in this point. From this, I am anticipating using one of these square things as an oil can on a later KV...

Cheers!

Bob

There are pictures of the fuel boxes in the Tank Power KV books . A couple of pictures of new KV-I tanks at the Kirovskij Plant , Leningrad Sept 41 ( page 45 vol I/II ) Another picture on page 51 same volume . A single picture on page 48 , as well as a nice placement diagram on page 70 in volume III. Not much else in the books I've got .

The tanks are the BT-7 items you described. I did make a mistake on the size of the KV fuel tanks, they are 50 litre not gallon.

Bob, these square fuel cans were NOT "legitimately" installed on ANY early KV-1 and KV-2.

As it was absolutely correctly mentioned, they started to appear in summer 1941 - so if your model is manufactured then, you need to check the manufacture date range.

If earlier than summer 1941 - then no.

Phil;

I'm wholly abused of my notion to put any of these square cans on my KV-2 "early", given as it is certainly a pre-1941 production vehicle and I am probably painting it up to be a pre-Barbarossa tank!

I am, however, still thinking of doing up a post-Barb KV-2 using a Trumpeter later-version -2, and think that these could be a go on that...

Do you know whether these square fuel drums/boxes were "strictly" a factory installation item from their initial appearance in June 1941 (and hence only to be legitimately found on new KV rolled out from June 1941 and later), or could they have been a supply item trucked out to front units and available for fitting to extant KV by crew or unit shops starting after June 1941?

I would guess that a supply-line item could have been installed on any available tank if the unit or crew saw an advantage (or an order) to do so. It would also seem plausible that these square fuel drums - maybe complete with strap-set or alternatively free of same - could have been a supply-truck cargo load item (and I have a GAZ that may be appropriately used for a later 1941 build...) being sent to units or front area shops...

Any ideas to this?

Bob

Bob,

3 points:

1. Please be careful about planning a "post-Barb" KV-2 build. Nearly all KV-2s were lost in the first 3 months of The War. Only 1 (or 2, depending on the source) unit survived until winter.

2. But, according to M. Kolomiets (ISBN 978-5-699-62573-4, "Heavy tank KV-2", Moscow, 2013), there is ONE known KV-2 unit that was repaired at LKZ in August 1941 - and it received these square fuel tanks during the report.

So, again, these square tanks were not installed at factory on KV-2 at the time of manufacturing == if you are building a "standard" KV-2 - don't use them, but if you are building that one unit that was repaired at LKZ, then it might make sense to "install" them.

3. These square fuel / oil tanks were installed only on KV-1 and only in August and September 1941 - they simply were not a wide-spread standard for all Soviet tanks, and they were not mass-produced for truck haul as supply item.

"Usual" (cylinder-shaped) barrels were used to store fuel in the field. Fuel was also hauled by fuel trucks (cisterns).

I meant "during the REPAIRS", of course...

Phil;

Thanks for the additional dope!

So... Apparently NO "factory install" on any new-production KV-2. OK.

So now we need to address those pictures in Peter's linked Beutepanzer page which show what I guess was a captured KV-2 in German service w/ Pz 17, with what looks like maybe 3 of these fuel boxes...

At what point do you think those boxes made it onto that KV-2? Would those have been boxes added by a Soviet repair shop before that KV-2 was captured, or maybe added by the German after it was captured? In the former case, I would suppose that the boxes were maybe installed at some rear-area maint center or repair center. If they were added post-capture by the Germans... where would they have got those boxes from?

In the above cases, it seems likely that those boxes would likely have traveled to some shop in some truck as spare parts for area shop installation (which goes with your info that apparently no new KV-2 received these as production-line fittings), OR they may have been scavenged from some KV-1 hull, either by a Sov repair crew or by the Germans furnishing their newly-captured giant... It's that, or they were delivered to some unit supply area or shop - where, with the 1941-42 German advances, they may have been captured?

Looking at those Beutepanzer pics... At least one shows what could have been the giant right after it was captured by Pz D 17 - with 3 boxes visible on its R fender - and before it was marked with balkankreuz. If that is the case, then this would suggest that the Russians had fitted those 3 boxes - and this fitting would have been to a later KV-2 during summer or fall 1941 in order to be captured with them on - which capture likely happened in summer or fall of 1941.

Given that these boxes didn't appear until JUNE 1941 or later, and most of the KV-2 were apparently destroyed pretty early on in 1941 or early 1942... There seems only a pretty narrow window of time that these boxes became available as spare or replacement parts AND made it onto KV-2.

Last but not least - You mention one KV-2 unit was repaired at LKZ in AUG 1941... What was "LKZ"? Was that some Sov repair center near to the eastward-shifting front?

Thanks again for all the dope and discussion!

Bob

Bob,

I know I will get jumped all over for this one, but the KV-2 with the tanks on it and all the Germans posing looks to be a photo at the time of its capture. And the tanks are in the same positions as they occupied on KV-1s. You can even see the empty position for a fourth tank behind the first three.

LKZ is the acronym for the Leningrad plant at which KV production and design originated. The Soviets sent damaged tanks back to be reworked at the factories when they could not be field repaired.

I would say go ahead and add the tanks to the later KV-2 as they could have been easily added at the local level from a wrecked tank. Only 20 of the KV Big Turret were made and were more prone to loss because of the extra weight of the turret. Even the newer turret KV-2 was badly engineered.

Of course, you can use artistic license here as it is possible for the fuel tanks to be added after to any KV in the field with a little wielding. Our friend is right though that the KV-2s were all lost very early in the invasion.