I have finished several tank kits with the rubber band tracks and was mostly pleased with the results. One set didn't turn out so well. The kit is the Tamiya Panzer IV auf D. I painted the tracks with a Tamiya spray bomb in a nice dark rusty brown color as I had several times before. This time I left them out in the sun to dry. Big mistake! The tracks were baconized when I returned ten minutes later!
Seeing this is all a learning experience, I ordered a set of Fruil 36 cm tracks. I built these up and trial fitted them, got them with just a bit of sag on the top run. Then I primed, painted & weathered them. They looked really good and I was pleased with them.
The problem came when fitting the finished tracks to the finished lower hull. I found they didn't quite fit the sprockets because the sprocket was too wide! Crap! Somehow, Tamiya made the sprocket too wide for the 36 cm tracks this tank should have had. I'm not sure how I could have missed this during the trial fitting but I did.
So––I ordered a second set of Fruils, this time in the wider 40 cm size the later IVs had. These fit the sprockets better with a fit of "adjusting" of the teeth with a jeweler's file.
Seeing this is a learning experience I decided to try another trick new to me, track burnishing fluid. A bottle of Mig track burnishing fluid was ordered on eBay. The tracks are finished, the fluid is here but the instructions are breezy to say the least and it is probably fair to say that whoever wrote them didn't speak English. The translation looks like something that Babblefish might have provided. Great for humor but not so hot for information.
OK, how do you use this stuff? What does it dilute with? Can I keep it for future projects?
Vintage Paul
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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Using Mig Burnishing Fluid?
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2016 - 06:18 AM UTC
TRM5150
Joined: January 03, 2010
KitMaker: 2,159 posts
Armorama: 707 posts
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2016 - 07:08 AM UTC
Hey Paul,
Clean the tracks really good to remove oils and release agents. Soap and water works...Acetone works best. Give the tracks a scrub with the acetone and an old toothbrush. Even though the fluid works extremely fast full strength, you can cut the burnishing fluid with water...50/50 works. Half a bottle should take care of one set of tracks with the right glass or plastic bowl to submerse them in. You sometimes can get two applications out of one mix...which means up to 4 sets of track per bottle.
Once the tracks are burnished, run them under some warm water to remove any excess burnishing fluid.
Check out YouTube with a search for "Burnishing Fluid". Basically these agents are all about the same. There are some decent videos that can help. Here is one I even made for Uschi van der Rosten's - https://youtu.be/CQDqC7WieIY
Best of luck!
Clean the tracks really good to remove oils and release agents. Soap and water works...Acetone works best. Give the tracks a scrub with the acetone and an old toothbrush. Even though the fluid works extremely fast full strength, you can cut the burnishing fluid with water...50/50 works. Half a bottle should take care of one set of tracks with the right glass or plastic bowl to submerse them in. You sometimes can get two applications out of one mix...which means up to 4 sets of track per bottle.
Once the tracks are burnished, run them under some warm water to remove any excess burnishing fluid.
Check out YouTube with a search for "Burnishing Fluid". Basically these agents are all about the same. There are some decent videos that can help. Here is one I even made for Uschi van der Rosten's - https://youtu.be/CQDqC7WieIY
Best of luck!
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2016 - 08:30 AM UTC
Thanks, that is very helpful info. I had not done any cleaning before assembly so this is the time to do it. I should have acetone in stock.
Can I store the used liquid in a plastic butter dish or similer untill the next job comes up? I have several in mind but it will be some weeks befor I can get them far enough along to build tracks.
Vintage Paul
Can I store the used liquid in a plastic butter dish or similer untill the next job comes up? I have several in mind but it will be some weeks befor I can get them far enough along to build tracks.
Vintage Paul
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2016 - 08:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have finished several tank kits with the rubber band tracks and was mostly pleased with the results. One set didn't turn out so well. The kit is the Tamiya Panzer IV auf D. I painted the tracks with a Tamiya spray bomb in a nice dark rusty brown color as I had several times before. This time I left them out in the sun to dry. Big mistake! The tracks were baconized when I returned ten minutes later!
Seeing this is all a learning experience, I ordered a set of Fruil 36 cm tracks. I built these up and trial fitted them, got them with just a bit of sag on the top run. Then I primed, painted & weathered them. They looked really good and I was pleased with them.
The problem came when fitting the finished tracks to the finished lower hull. I found they didn't quite fit the sprockets because the sprocket was too wide! Crap! Somehow, Tamiya made the sprocket too wide for the 36 cm tracks this tank should have had. I'm not sure how I could have missed this during the trial fitting but I did.
So––I ordered a second set of Fruils, this time in the wider 40 cm size the later IVs had. These fit the sprockets better with a fit of "adjusting" of the teeth with a jeweler's file.
Seeing this is a learning experience I decided to try another trick new to me, track burnishing fluid. A bottle of Mig track burnishing fluid was ordered on eBay. The tracks are finished, the fluid is here but the instructions are breezy to say the least and it is probably fair to say that whoever wrote them didn't speak English. The translation looks like something that Babblefish might have provided. Great for humor but not so hot for information.
OK, how do you use this stuff? What does it dilute with? Can I keep it for future projects?
Vintage Paul
Yeah, the Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf D, was released in 1977, using the chassis of their 1975 Ausf. H kit. To save money, Tamiya-san used the same tracks, so the early sprockets were made too wide in order to fit them Actually, they were a bit too wide even for an Ausf. H. The current Dragon and Hobby Boss (formerly Tristar) kits are accurately scaled.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Monday, January 25, 2016 - 09:14 AM UTC
Weren't they a little wide anyway to utilize the rubber bands better, for the motorized aspect?
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:39 AM UTC
I have been trying to puzzle this out. The books say the D should have the 36 cm tracks and the 36 cm Fruils do not fit. I ordered the 40 cm version and they do fit after a fashion.
I thought that Tamiya just cheaped out and used the later parts but comparing the sprockets & tracks from the H kit in the stash showed that both are different.
Now I'm thinking that possibly Tamiya used a muesum example that had been upgraded? Is it possible that the sprockets were widened in service with a spacer so that they still looked like the originals but fit the new tracks?
I'm definitely confused about this. Whatever the situation, I'm interested in finishing this kit and moving on.
I'm going to try posting some pics, lessee if this works:
This shows the narrow Fruils during the first fitting
This is the wider set that fits better
I thought that Tamiya just cheaped out and used the later parts but comparing the sprockets & tracks from the H kit in the stash showed that both are different.
Now I'm thinking that possibly Tamiya used a muesum example that had been upgraded? Is it possible that the sprockets were widened in service with a spacer so that they still looked like the originals but fit the new tracks?
I'm definitely confused about this. Whatever the situation, I'm interested in finishing this kit and moving on.
I'm going to try posting some pics, lessee if this works:
This shows the narrow Fruils during the first fitting
This is the wider set that fits better
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 02:40 AM UTC
Hey! This pictures worked! I guess I get a bone for a reward . . .
TRM5150
Joined: January 03, 2010
KitMaker: 2,159 posts
Armorama: 707 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 06:03 AM UTC
Paul, any small plastic or glass bottle that seals should work just fine to keep the used fluid until needed again.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 08:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have been trying to puzzle this out. The books say the D should have the 36 cm tracks and the 36 cm Fruils do not fit. I ordered the 40 cm version and they do fit after a fashion.
I thought that Tamiya just cheaped out and used the later parts but comparing the sprockets & tracks from the H kit in the stash showed that both are different.
Now I'm thinking that possibly Tamiya used a muesum example that had been upgraded? Is it possible that the sprockets were widened in service with a spacer so that they still looked like the originals but fit the new tracks?
I'm definitely confused about this. Whatever the situation, I'm interested in finishing this kit and moving on.
I'm going to try posting some pics, lessee if this works:
This shows the narrow Fruils during the first fitting
This is the wider set that fits better
You're overthinking this. We griped about this at the time the Panzer IV D kit came out almost forty years ago. The Tamiya company didn't want to spend money tooling a new set of tracks, so they deliberately tooled the new Ausf. D drive sprockets wrong, to fit the existing Ausf. H vinyl tracks (which had the late war ice spuds molded on the cleats, so they couldn't even look "sort of" correct for the 1940 markings).
Nothing new about that--when Tamiya did the King Tiger and Hunting Tiger in 1967, they had a problem--the two chassis were different lengths, so Tamiya would have had to tool two different lower hulls, and two different sets of tracks. Way too expensive. Instead, they just averaged the two, so the King Tiger was a bit too long, and the Hunting Tiger was a bit too short (their current kits are different molds, of course).
There are companies doing idiotic short cuts even today. Last year, Academy retooled about half of their M10 tank destroyer kit, including an all-new turret. But they didn't budget enough to replace the too-narrow mantlet from the original kit. Thus, the new turret deliberately tapers too much, so it will fit inside the old incorrect mantlet part. So even the correction is incorrect!
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 - 10:58 PM UTC
Thanks Gerald, that explains a lot. I started modeling back in the late 50s when models were just another sort of toy. The kits then were very crude compared to the sparkling gems we expect today.
Tamiya probably came from toy thinking to model thinking over time. I have their Pershing kit and its a pip. A build for sometime in the future when I get more current practice with the wealth of new materials & techniques available now.
What a great time to be a modeler!
Tamiya probably came from toy thinking to model thinking over time. I have their Pershing kit and its a pip. A build for sometime in the future when I get more current practice with the wealth of new materials & techniques available now.
What a great time to be a modeler!
Hudson29
#460
Joined: September 16, 2014
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,024 posts
Posted: Monday, February 01, 2016 - 12:59 AM UTC
Here is an update for anyone who is thinking of trying this method of finishing tracks.
I gave the tracks a good scrubbing with warm soapy water followed by a good rinse also in warm water. Half the bottle of MIG Burnishing Fluid was poured into a plastic container and diluted by an equal amount of luke warm water. The tracks were rolled up and placed into the container and agitated and swirled around. Even though the fluid covered the tracks, I removed them and turned them over several times.
The tracks started to darken and over the course of 15 or 20 minutes turned brown getting darker with time. When I judged them dark enough, the tracks were removed and given a good rinse in warm water then set out to dry.
The tracks were turned a nice dark brown with odd spots were the fluid did not darken the metal. They will be covered with a light rust paint.
In retrospect, I wish I had pulled the tracks sooner as I am modeling a factory fresh tank only weeks out of the factory and off to war. A lighter finish would have replicated this better. This whole model is a learning experience so I'll keep that in mind for future builds.
Here are the tracks right out of the bath:
This is the new 40cm tracks burnished set alongside the older 36cn tracks that were painted and finshed the conventional way:
I gave the tracks a good scrubbing with warm soapy water followed by a good rinse also in warm water. Half the bottle of MIG Burnishing Fluid was poured into a plastic container and diluted by an equal amount of luke warm water. The tracks were rolled up and placed into the container and agitated and swirled around. Even though the fluid covered the tracks, I removed them and turned them over several times.
The tracks started to darken and over the course of 15 or 20 minutes turned brown getting darker with time. When I judged them dark enough, the tracks were removed and given a good rinse in warm water then set out to dry.
The tracks were turned a nice dark brown with odd spots were the fluid did not darken the metal. They will be covered with a light rust paint.
In retrospect, I wish I had pulled the tracks sooner as I am modeling a factory fresh tank only weeks out of the factory and off to war. A lighter finish would have replicated this better. This whole model is a learning experience so I'll keep that in mind for future builds.
Here are the tracks right out of the bath:
This is the new 40cm tracks burnished set alongside the older 36cn tracks that were painted and finshed the conventional way:
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