someday i heard about dunkelgelb mix formula from someone
he said that he saw in some where internet saying
"mixing tamiya dark yellow and dessert yellow
with some ratio can make very close real dunkelgelb
and this is a widely-accepted theory".

but i and he dont know if it is really reliable,
and whose idea is this(source from where? missinglink guys?)
and so what ratio is best known?? 8:2? 5:5?

if anyone know about this "tamiya dessert yellow/dark yellow
mix theory, please inform me anything"

I will answer your question in a different way. Instead of using Tamyia Products use the latest generation of Paints by a company like MIG or AK. Mig's Ammo Range contain a massive array of colours in modulations that you will be amazed at. They are not much more expensive than Tamyia.

Avoid the whole mixing paint problems by not doing it

thanks for your help. but

iam suspecious about thier color being historycally
correct.

can i believe them?


for example, as i know, tomas jentz and luis doyle
researched that there was only one dunkelgelb.
but, mig acrylic paint have 3 variation of dunkelgelb.

so,i was confused..

Dark Yellow changed a little over the war and different makers had slightly different shades.

You're overthinking it !

Mig has very good paints and their pigments range is excellent too. However you can't buy them in South Africa so I use Humbrol 83. It's pretty close.

Also remember that it doesn't take a lot of exposure to the elements to have an impact on the paint.

I think Steven is right: Pick a color you like and use it.

I have some original wwII german objects (jerrycans, 7'5cm ammo steel containers, periscope and others) and they have variations in color. It's not posible that only one shade of dunkelgelb existed. A shade each lot. Make the color you consider as a good dark yellow. Probably a 1/1 mix of tamiya's dark yellow/desert yellow with a bit of white would work fine. I make a mix each time I paint so my models are not always the same color.

When you consider how long German WWII armor has sort of dominated the market or at least been a major part, it's very surprising that anyone would still have to mix because that says that no one has developed a paint that actually matches a huge section of the market. Having gotten that rant out of the way, since I'm no expert, I'll say that I've usually done that mix of Tamiya paints, but lately have been trying out other companies, as logic and evidence presented above confirm there is no "right all the time" shade.

I have to agree with everyone and pick a shade that looks right for you. I did find someone who mixed Tamiya paint Dark Yellow XF-60 and Dark Yellow XF-59. 4:1 ratio. Haven't tried this mixture so can't tell you what it looks like myself.

I believe LifeColor offers the most accurate German mechanized colors.

everyone thanks!

really helpful.


additionally, i wanna know if someone know xtracolor x809
shade.

david byrden said somewhere that
xtracolor 809 is perfect match for dunkelgelb.
but i cant buy xtracolor here..
is it similar color to humbrol 83 or modelmaster dunkelgelb?

i have used tamiya xf60 or mm dg

Not sure how you get an exact match to a thing that was inherently variable. There really isn't any "true" dunklegelb beyond the paint formula that is was supposed to be. The reality was no two pots of paint were the same.

When considering what your starting point should be, bear in mind that even original artefacts which have been issued and used and handled for over 60 years will not be the same colour now as they were initially. Dunkelgelb darkens with handling and the original is not very yellow at all based on the matched sample that Jentz had a few years ago. Some Finnish chaps published a Humbrol mix in Mil Mod a while back (in an article on building a Finnish Pz IV J) and that was based on unused samples of artefacts found in sealed boxes. They were all the same colour. Take that for what you will but David Byrden's website, based on observations by Doyle, also reports little variation.

If I remember correctly you can mix Humbrol 83 and 72 ( ratio 1 to 4 and I think it is 4 parts Hu72 to 1 Hu83, try both mixes, the end result should be close to Hu72, khaki with a sand/yellow tendency) to produce something very close to xtracolor 809.

This page could be useful (after some Google Translate):
http://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/wehrmacht/ral7028dunkelgelb.php
xtracolor 809 is close to the patch named
"RAL 7028 Dunkelbgelb Ausgabe 1944"
but the colour for the period 1943 to sometime in 1944 should probably be
"RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb"
It should be possible to produce both these colours by mixing Hu83 + Hu72 in different ratios, more Hu72 for the Ausgabe 1944.
/ Robin

If I remember correctly you can mix Humbrol 83 and 72 ( ratio 1 to 4 and I think it is 4 parts Hu72 to 1 Hu83, try both mixes, the end result should be close to Hu72, khaki with a sand/yellow tendency) to produce something very close to xtracolor 809.

This page could be useful (after some Google Translate):
http://www.militaerlacke.de/lack/1kkunstharzlacke/wehrmacht/ral7028dunkelgelb.php
xtracolor 809 is close to the patch named
"RAL 7028 Dunkelbgelb Ausgabe 1944"
but the colour for the period 1943 to sometime in 1944 should probably be
"RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb"
It should be possible to produce both these colours by mixing Hu83 + Hu72 in different ratios, more Hu72 for the Ausgabe 1944.
/ Robin[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------



RobinNilsson, thank you very much

i feel really happy
i have just ordered humbrol 72 to test this formula with my humbrol 83

your help isvery helpful

but robin,

i have just found what you wrote 10 years ago.
http://armorama.com/forums/226861

you said at there 72+"63or83?"

which one is correct memory?

You know what? There is NO SUCH THING as an exact match for ANYTHING! Paints vary in shades even with today's "highly-computerized exacting technology". Even in today's automotive paint industry, there are usually 3 to 4 ALTERNATE MIXTURES for any given paint color.

Imagine the wild paint variations that existed during WWII, especially since Germany's Industry was being ground into dust by the combined Allied Bombing Offensive, innumerable shortages, plus the in-fighting between manufacturers and the politically-appointed, corrupt NAZI procurement structure.

Different manufacturers were contracted to produce paints, and NONE of them actually followed the paint manufacturing specs, for one reason or another. Keep in mind that different manufacturers were building (and painting) German vehicles during WWII; Krupp, Daimler-Benz, M.A.N, Henschell, etc. Paint was procured from the NEAREST paint supply, especially since much of Germany's Rail Network was being destroyed piecemeal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that German Vehicles were supplied with extra tins of Dunkelgelb, Rotbraun, and Olivgrun upon leaving the factory, ostensibly to be used in RE-PAINTING and camouflaging said vehicles at a later opportunity. These were designed and formulated in a PASTE-form, which was the same consistency as canned shoe polish, such as KIWI for example. These pastes were to be thinned-down with whatever was available as a thinning agent. These thinners included ANY petroleum or water-based agent- Gasoline, Kerosene (parrafin, for our British Friends), Naphtha, Diesel Fuel, Coal Oil, Turpentine, Motor Oil, Waste Oil, Water, Beer, and even Pee, if necessary. This means that these pastes were mixed with different forms of thinning agents, resulting in a very wide variation of color. So, YOU be the judge of what is supposedly "correct".

Consider also, that spray equipment was not always available, necessitating the use of brushes, mops, brooms, faggots of small twigs or straw, and HANDS, were used to apply whatever glop the Tank Crew in the field had come up with to be used as "paint".

Given the ambiguous paint technology of the time, and that also includes US/Allied vehicles, a very broad spectrum of color was not only possible, but was actually the rule.

In the case of US/Allied vehicles, the paints were quite a bit more consistent in color, given the fact that American paint manufacturers weren't being bombed back into the Stone Age- HOWEVER, there were STILL very noticeable variations in your basic Olive Drab.

As the war deteriorated the German Industrial base, German paints did, also. It just stands to reason that nearly any shade of Dunkelgelb can be just as "correct" as it is "wrong"...

Since memories are sometimes unreliable I had to go back to the hardware (tins of Humbrol paint). Since I did the mixing by using whole tins (in the knowledge that I would sooner or later use all of it) and then used the tins to store the mix I could check the numbers on the lids. There are more tins with 72 stamped on the lid and the other tin is stamped 63.
So the answer is Hu 63.
The reason for Hu 83 sneaking into this is that Hu 83 is actually very close to the mix of 72 and 63.
If you plan on weathering et.c then I would suggest using Hu 83 and don't worry about the small difference, otherwise you can mix 4 parts 72 to one part 63.
/ Robin

What if Humbrol has changed THEIR formulas in the meantime?? Just to throw a fly in the ointment...

Dennis M. Struk

-> really thank you for your long and informative
information.
i alos dont expect to make ""100%"" correct color
because i also know some of what you said.

but what i wanna know is just "what is the most
intended standard color or relativly general color when it is made perfectly as intended"


robbin

-> really thanks again.
so i just have ordered humbrol 63 and now i just
waiting it to be delivered to my house.
i guess the 63+72 mixing result will be very slightly reddish than humbrol
83 or tamiya xf60
and,i also guess this result would very close to
tamiya darkyellow+dessertyellow
:)


anyway, summarize what you said,

1. humbrol 72+ humbrol "63" with 4:1 ratio
is very close to xtracolor x809.

2. and humbrol "83" is also close to
the result of mixing 72+63

did i understood right?

You may purchase Xtracolor, here:
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=19&category=37&product=1775

It still has to jump the pond. But, the shipping charge is far below $30.

Yep / Robin

I use either XF-60 or Buff depending on the stage in the war I want. And then I filter them towards my end results. I agree with people thinking this is overthought a lot. Paint fades. Find something easy to get that works.