Beware when ordering German kits from Germany
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
KitMaker: 384 posts
Armorama: 372 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 12:28 PM UTC
Hi all.
As a modeller for 20 years,I've known about Germany's law regarding "denazification" and the fact that certain model manufacturers do not include swastikas with their decals,but I thought that's where it stopped.
A few weeks ago I ordered a Dragon Tiger 1 kit from a well known (and excellent) hobby shop in Germany.When it arrived,fully sealed in the original plastic,the first thing I noticed was that the box art had small squares of black duct tape stuck over the 'Dietrich' insignia. On opening the kit I found that the instructions had been similarly treated with a black permanent marker,blacking over any insignia that appeared in the kit.
To my horror, the decal sheet had been removed from its plastic sleeve and all the unit insignia ("Dietrich" key symbols of the 101st s.pz.abt) had been cut off the decal sheet with a hobby knife,leaving only the turret numbers and balkenkreuzen. When I contacted the shop owner he directed me to the terms and conditions of purchase which included a reference to the fact that German law has outlawed all nazi symbols.
To my knowledge,the Dietrich symbol (simply a crossed set of keys in a plain shield) is not a nazi icon? Very similar logos are widespread especially amongst banking institutions (UBS comes to mind).I understand the sensitivity of Germans towards their past but in my opinion this level of paranoia is ridiculous.
Anyway, please be aware when buying kits from Germany that you're likely to encounter similar.
Praha, Czech Republic
Joined: February 13, 2006
KitMaker: 674 posts
Armorama: 637 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 12:45 PM UTC
They have also outlawed (sort-of) blood in videogames. So beware with this aticle also...
Joined: May 23, 2007
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 01:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
To my horror, the decal sheet had been removed from its plastic sleeve and all the unit insignia ("Dietrich" key symbols of the 101st s.pz.abt) had been cut off the decal sheet with a hobby knife,leaving only the turret numbers and balkenkreuzen. When I contacted the shop owner he directed me to the terms and conditions of purchase which included a reference to the fact that German law has outlawed all nazi symbols.
To my knowledge,the Dietrich symbol (simply a crossed set of keys in a plain shield) is not a nazi icon? Very similar logos are widespread especially amongst banking institutions (UBS comes to mind).I understand the sensitivity of Germans towards their past but in my opinion this level of paranoia is ridiculous.
Anyway, please be aware when buying kits from Germany that you're likely to encounter similar.
Long time I go I bought the Tamiya Flak36 88mm gun (which could be assembled with a Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS crew) when I was in Germany and encountered the same - the instructions were blacked out with a permanent marker in places where Waffen-SS markings were shown and the decals for their helmets were cut out.
So, I'd presume all insignia used by the Waffen-SS is forbidden as well. While I can understand that, I wish they marked such "processed" kits by some sticker on the box or as in your case, by a special warning on the kit webpage.
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
KitMaker: 384 posts
Armorama: 372 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 01:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I wish they marked such "processed" kits by some sticker on the box or as in your case, by a special warning on the kit webpage.
Exactly. I would never have bought the kit if I had known it was missing the decals I needed to build an historically accurate model.
As a side note I think it is quite illogical to ban every single symbol that was used by the SS especially if that symbol is a common item like crossed keys. I mean,the authorities think that anyone beyond the handful of ww2 historians and model builders will even know that the Dietrich symbol was in any way connected to the SS?
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: October 14, 2013
KitMaker: 318 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 01:56 PM UTC
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 02:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi all.
As a modeller for 20 years,I've known about Germany's law regarding "denazification" and the fact that certain model manufacturers do not include swastikas with their decals,but I thought that's where it stopped.
A few weeks ago I ordered a Dragon Tiger 1 kit from a well known (and excellent) hobby shop in Germany.When it arrived,fully sealed in the original plastic,the first thing I noticed was that the box art had small squares of black duct tape stuck over the 'Dietrich' insignia. On opening the kit I found that the instructions had been similarly treated with a black permanent marker,blacking over any insignia that appeared in the kit.
To my horror, the decal sheet had been removed from its plastic sleeve and all the unit insignia ("Dietrich" key symbols of the 101st s.pz.abt) had been cut off the decal sheet with a hobby knife,leaving only the turret numbers and balkenkreuzen. When I contacted the shop owner he directed me to the terms and conditions of purchase which included a reference to the fact that German law has outlawed all nazi symbols.
To my knowledge,the Dietrich symbol (simply a crossed set of keys in a plain shield) is not a nazi icon? Very similar logos are widespread especially amongst banking institutions (UBS comes to mind).I understand the sensitivity of Germans towards their past but in my opinion this level of paranoia is ridiculous.
Anyway, please be aware when buying kits from Germany that you're likely to encounter similar.
I have a simple solution:
If you want to buy your WWII German subject matter which normally would include the various Swastikas and NAZI-fied pseudo-Ancient Germanic mumbo-jumbo SS runes and other "insignia", I suggest buying your WWII German model kits, (or buy separate decal sheets) from the various US, British and Asian Hobby Outlets...
The German and various Eastern European Hobby Shops are forbidden by law to sell ANY WWII German modelling subject with decals depicting Swastikas and the like, by law- with good reason...
In short, buy your WWII German subject matter elsewhere...
Arkansas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 02:32 PM UTC
You may be able to obtain replacements through Dragoncare. Explain your predicament and see if they can help.
Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.
European Union
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 2,099 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 02:42 PM UTC
I thought all Nazi symbols were allowed by law in art and structure, which model kits certainly are
Never gonna' give EU up, never gonna' let EU down.
Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: January 31, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I mean,the authorities think that anyone beyond the handful of ww2 historians and model builders will even know that the Dietrich symbol was in any way connected to the SS?
My father, who has seen with his own eyes what the SS represented from being on the "wrong" side of them, up until today has a very strong and emotional reaction to all that relates to that specific group. And trust me, he recognises a hell of lot more than you've ever seen or known.
There's a reason those laws are in place, so do me a favour and respect them.
Harald
European Union
Joined: August 09, 2009
KitMaker: 1,732 posts
Armorama: 326 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 03:55 PM UTC
I'm sorry, Tim, but you are wrong. German law allows these symbols in art (like movies), but model kits are not classified as art in our law. We have learned to live with his law and I certainly stand behind the reason for this law.
Torsten
My campaigns for 2020:
MiGs - Done !
The Big Three - Done !
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CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefEngland - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:22 PM UTC
I understand why the Germans feel this way, but as items with various symbols can be obtained, it seems a little outdated in todays market. I in no way deny or support what the SS stood for and symbolise, but I feel it is a mistake to try and ignore it by hiding the deeds and symbolism.
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:40 PM UTC
For anyone who's interested in the law behind it (I'm a lawyer by trade, so....):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86aShould give a rough idea of how this works. The crossed keys don't seem to be among the forbidden symbols, but maybe the list is not exhaustive...
However, I understand retailers don't want to get in trouble with the law because they missed out on a particular symbol...
Wisconsin, United States
Joined: May 18, 2015
KitMaker: 99 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 05:23 PM UTC
A friend of mine that lives in Germany has the same problem. So from time to time I smuggle him decals or similar items.
http://www.youtube.com/adammann3d
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 05:47 PM UTC
Some manufacturers in Germany also have found workarounds to provide "propper" decals without being noticed. They just cut the Swastika in two on the decal sheet:
http://decals.guenstigergeht.net/product_info.php?info=p1936_reichskriegsflaggen.htmlSeems to be enough...
New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 06:11 PM UTC
Your just finding out about this now? Its been like this for 20-25+ years....
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 06:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Your just finding out about this now? Its been like this for 20-25+ years....
For example....
Interestingly enough, in Berlin's excellent technical museum, ther are several WW2 aircraft wih the correct swastikas on the tail...
It's the law in Germany, people can debate it all they want, but it stands. Perhaps it should simply be respected?
barkingdigger
Associate Editor 
#013
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 06:38 PM UTC
I have no issue with respecting the law in Germany, for all the good reasons of sensitivity that have been expressed.
But what intrigues me is that somebody has manually purged the kit of all such markings, using scissors and a felt-tip pen. If we extrapolate this action to all the WW2 models in all the shops in Germany that's a heck of a lot of man-hours! I just assumed it would be easier to have the mfgrs produce a German-law compatible version for sake of efficiency, and ban import of the non-compliant versions. Still, I guess it gives somebody a job!
"Glue, or Glue Not - there is no Dry-Fit" - Yoda (original script from Return of the Jedi...)
Lisboa, Portugal
Joined: March 04, 2008
KitMaker: 5,386 posts
Armorama: 4,727 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 07:03 PM UTC
I got several Dragon's Pz IV's from a Model Shop in Germany, the kits are in perfect conditions, decals and instructions are intact.
Guess I was lucky !
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 07:06 PM UTC
Mere import of the goods with illegal symbols is likely to constitute a violation of said provisions as well (I'm no Cirminal Law expert). Therefore I suppose that the reworking of the decals has to be done onthe manufacturer side.
I remember back then when I was a 10 year old kid (ages ago), I used to find it amusing that someone had to cover up the SS runes on the license plate decals in 1/72 kits. We're talking about stuff smaller than 0,5 mm here.
Anyway, (strange) law ist what makes us lawyers earn money. THe more the merrier
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: June 04, 2015
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 73 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 07:28 PM UTC
I had the same problem with this Tiger kit and contacted the seller why he had removed the symbols and he told me it wasn't him who did that. In fact it were the importer (Carson) in this case. So don't blame the seller
Joined: May 23, 2007
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 08:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I got several Dragon's Pz IV's from a Model Shop in Germany, the kits are in perfect conditions, decals and instructions are intact.Guess I was lucky !
But, does it come with some specific Waffen-SS decal options? As mentioned beforehand, the censoring is supposed to be done by the importers.
IIRC, Dragon had renamed some infantry kit boxes which used to reference Waffen-SS divisions later on, so perhaps such care was done on the other models as well (didn't really buy Dragon WWII tank kits lately so can't tell).
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 08:16 PM UTC
The kit in question should not have been sold as "brand new". It had been opened, tampered with, and parts (decals) obviously missing.
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 09:13 PM UTC
I ordered and received a sealed Dragon 6248 Sd.kfz. 251/22 Ausf.D from E-Hobbyland (now Freetime Hobbies) about seven years ago. Mind you, this was a U.S.-based online retailer. After opening the box, I noticed that one of the decal sheets had a bunch of decals blodged out with a black marker. So, I cleaned off the decals with rubbing alcohol and saw that they were divisional insignias for LAH, Totenkopf, Viking and Das Reich. I also found the same decals covered over in a sealed Dragon 251/D and in 6100, the old 250/1 Neu, also sealed. Why would kits sold in the U.S. contain censored decals?
http://hitemlowandhard.blogspot.com
European Union
Joined: March 09, 2003
KitMaker: 831 posts
Armorama: 791 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 09:14 PM UTC
First, read the link on §86.
The kits are most probably cencored by the manufacturer on behalf of the importer. It is law over here,that showing of certain Nazi symbols is a crime. No distributor will knowingly import and distribute items with theses symbols included. So, what happens: Better one more symbol censored and good, than one too less and you will have a visit of police and state attorney at home.
The kits are brought into distribution according law and aretherefore new.
Punctuation, grammar and orthography are completely fictitious.
Any accordance with current or former rules would be completely random and not intended.
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 09:29 PM UTC
You can hardly say the kit has been tampered with if it was done to comply with some regulation. Products are being changed by importers all the time, even pharmaceuticals...
However, you can blame your sellers to source the kits from the wrong places/ stocks. If anyhting, this could be a case of misleading advertising... Next time, ask before you buy. If they answer the wrong way (decals unaltered when they are), you have them by the balls...
Cheers!
