Hi guys,
I would like to know what kind of treatment the germans applied to the wood part of tools if they applied any.
Also I would like to know what kind of treatment they applied to the metal part of tools.
I know that some tank tools had the handles of bakelite and it can go from a brown to a black color.
I would also appreciate color photos of original tools.
The reason of my questions are because at my parents home the tools they have to work on the countryside have the wood with no apparent treatment and I am thinking that most likely germans and allies didn't give any treatment to the wood of the tools
Best regards,
Angel
Hosted by Darren Baker
German WWII tools
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 04:34 PM UTC
Biggles2
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 - 08:35 PM UTC
I know the German wire cutters had brown/dark brown/black bakelight handles (for insulation). Museum examples have tools with nicely finished and varnished wooden handles, but real ones would have been painted base color like the tank. But, with use, the paint gets worn off showing wood and bare metal.
JGriffon
United States
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Posted: Friday, February 12, 2016 - 05:39 PM UTC
I have held many examples of the different pioneer tools both well worn and used as well as some that had never been issued into service. German pioneer tools were not painted the base color of the vehicle, that was an allied practice. The tools were not installed on the vehicle until they reached the training area where the crews received them along with the vehicles. Vehicles not only received their base coat without tools installed but many received camo colors with the tools removed as well. It depended on the location and the amount of time the crews had to apply paint. Many photos as well as surviving examples also show tools with splotches of Red Brown and or Olive green camo paint on them as well. The pioneer tools which were made at other locations from the vehicles received a powder coating on all metal surfaces which was black in color and the handles were simply semi matte varnished wood. The wood shade varried a bit, from a medium sandy color to a medium brown color depending on the wood available. Yes, just like many of the museum examples. You are correct on the cable cutters though. They had the same black powder coating and had steel handles that had a red brown bakelite sleeve for insulation.
AikinutNY
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: October 21, 2003
KitMaker: 683 posts
Armorama: 630 posts
Joined: October 21, 2003
KitMaker: 683 posts
Armorama: 630 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2016 - 12:22 AM UTC
I have seen a couple of KTs being spray painted with tools and tow cables still attached.
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2016 - 12:26 AM UTC
Thanks a lot Biggles2, Joe and Jim.
Best regards,
Angel
Best regards,
Angel
Mannloon
Wisconsin, United States
Joined: May 18, 2015
KitMaker: 99 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Joined: May 18, 2015
KitMaker: 99 posts
Armorama: 97 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2016 - 06:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have held many examples of the different pioneer tools both well worn and used as well as some that had never been issued into service. German pioneer tools were not painted the base color of the vehicle, that was an allied practice. The tools were not installed on the vehicle until they reached the training area where the crews received them along with the vehicles. Vehicles not only received their base coat without tools installed but many received camo colors with the tools removed as well. It depended on the location and the amount of time the crews had to apply paint. Many photos as well as surviving examples also show tools with splotches of Red Brown and or Olive green camo paint on them as well. The pioneer tools which were made at other locations from the vehicles received a powder coating on all metal surfaces which was black in color and the handles were simply semi matte varnished wood. The wood shade varried a bit, from a medium sandy color to a medium brown color depending on the wood available. Yes, just like many of the museum examples. You are correct on the cable cutters though. They had the same black powder coating and had steel handles that had a red brown bakelite sleeve for insulation.
So red brown cutter handles is accurate to your knowledge? And do you mind me asking what your sources are?
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 01:43 PM UTC
Hi Adam,
In the following links you can find a photo of a german wire cutter with the bakelite handles in the color you mentioned.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/186270
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H050671.html
Hope it helps you.
The reason I asked about the wood of the german tools is because I had doubts they were varnished since the tools at my parents used in the country don't seem to have any treatment and had wasn't sured the ones that survived received the varnish after the war in order to preserve them.
Best regards,
Angel
In the following links you can find a photo of a german wire cutter with the bakelite handles in the color you mentioned.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/186270
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H050671.html
Hope it helps you.
The reason I asked about the wood of the german tools is because I had doubts they were varnished since the tools at my parents used in the country don't seem to have any treatment and had wasn't sured the ones that survived received the varnish after the war in order to preserve them.
Best regards,
Angel
Biggles2
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 08:23 PM UTC
Hmmm...interesting in that the first pic above of the wire cutters, originally from Frenchy, has remains of Dunkelgelb on the metal parts. So...painted, or unpainted? That is the question!
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 10:44 PM UTC
Or the question could be: Was it painted during WWII or afterwards?
I suppose that one can choose to paint them or not but what I find strange is that the remains of paint are only on the metallic part and not on the whole wire cutter.
I suppose that one can choose to paint them or not but what I find strange is that the remains of paint are only on the metallic part and not on the whole wire cutter.
Biggles2
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:34 AM UTC
Paint doesn't stick to bakelite.
Vicious
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 06:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Paint doesn't stick to bakelite.
Yep..i quote 100%,i made few restoration to hold Vespa's with some parts in Bakelite,one was paited "on the field" over everything,seat,lights,motor etc...but luckly the bakelite parts (really hard to find if you need new) was nearly without pait,just few stain i clean with the rub of my fingernails
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 11:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHmmm...interesting in that the first pic above of the wire cutters, originally from Frenchy, has remains of Dunkelgelb on the metal parts. So...painted, or unpainted? That is the question!
Dunkelgelb was much lighter. That color looks bright or taxi cub yellow.
My sources indicate that cutter handles were red brown or grey. For red brown I use vallejo shadow brown.
I am interesting to read others input about degree to which wooden handles were varnished.
The only instances I know of pioneer tools being painted were czech beutepanzers...
Seriously, I can't believe they would varnish pioneer tools! Even rifle stocks didn't get varnished. the handles would be just as dull and grayish brown just like last year's snow shovel handle. If they did get any paint on them, it would be during hasty camo application if at all. There is just no good reason to do anything to pioneer tools other than prevent corrosion of the ferrous parts.
Vicious
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 12:36 PM UTC
Ok German like to do thigs in a certain way but varnish the pioneer tool?...really??... me too i dont think so,i work and i see this kind of tool from when i am a little child from my grandfather,we use to buy cheap tool from Swiss army surplus and the only tool some time have some kind of varnish was screwdrivers,hammers but not shovels,sledge-hammer,pickaxe etc...now some time you see varnish stuff but is just for look nicer for DIY people use them once a year
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 02:18 PM UTC
Today I learnt something new: paint doesn't stick to bakelite.
Thanks all for your replies,
Angel
Thanks all for your replies,
Angel
Vicious
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 02:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Today I learnt something new: paint doesn't stick to bakelite.
Thanks all for your replies,
Angel
i have this experience with that few piece but is difficult to say "Always" becose is a resin and can be use pure or mixed with other material like sawdust etc.. and in that case i dont know if the surface is flat and the paint stick better,sure dont have the same grip compare to wood
P.s:Yep...after a quick search,bakelite can be paited only after a coat of primer for resin and plastic material or like happen to me the pait dont grip and can be scratch really easy,and on a tank with vibration etc...i dont think stay on the handles long time
JGriffon
United States
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:10 PM UTC
I would like to begin with asking our friends from Australia how many ww2 German weapons have they held in their hands that makes them so sure that the Germans did not varnish gun stocks. I bought, sold, and traded WW1 and WW2 German weapons and equipment for 30 years this is still allowed in the US. MG42's, 34's, MG15's, MP40's, MP44'S, G43's, dozens of 98A's and 98K's, Lugers,P38's,walthers, Panzerfaust, 8.8cm Panzererschreck, all kinds of uniforms, and all kinds of field equipment including pioneer tools. To alter any historical item makes it worthless and you can't sell it, so these things have not been varnished after the war. The fact is that the Germans dipped any wooden item in a semi-matte varnish that they wanted to last, whether it was a rifle stock or a shovel handle. What someones father owned in a country halfway around the world and 30 years after the fact has little bearing on what the Germans did. I have included some URL's for you to have a look at what is out there, but if you wish to seriously verify if wooden items like shovel handles and gun stocks were dipped in varnish then I recommend that you email the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC, they have meticulously recorded all of the industrial processes that people were forced to do and will be happy to respond. A great source of information.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8541201
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2d/44/24/2d4424467af41871e46f45c4bfad2cbf.jpg
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11746915
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/121758023640?item=121758023640&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-German-Entrenching-Tool-with-Afrika-Korps-Canvas-Cover-/262263925044?
hash=item3d1025e934:g:qiAAAOSwzhVWqkqD
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-GERMAN-ARMY-MILITARY-WEHRMACHT-PIONEER-SAW-BLADE-KNIFE-CUT-INSTRUMENT-TOOL-/361332199032
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/561261172280890941/
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=15106&Category_Code=1
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=24316&Category_Code=1
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8541201
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2d/44/24/2d4424467af41871e46f45c4bfad2cbf.jpg
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11746915
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/121758023640?item=121758023640&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-German-Entrenching-Tool-with-Afrika-Korps-Canvas-Cover-/262263925044?
hash=item3d1025e934:g:qiAAAOSwzhVWqkqD
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-GERMAN-ARMY-MILITARY-WEHRMACHT-PIONEER-SAW-BLADE-KNIFE-CUT-INSTRUMENT-TOOL-/361332199032
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/561261172280890941/
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=15106&Category_Code=1
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=24316&Category_Code=1
Vicious
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:51 PM UTC
Mate not becose i writhe from Australia mean a am from Down Under,i am born and raised in Switzerland,probably (sure!) my english is not so good,in my messagge i dont speak about the wood on guns or personal equipment,that yes is treated, like the one you show in the majority of the picture but if you look the wood of the last shovel that in not treated 100% an i have some Doubt on the oter few tool, i know wat i mean,That is glossy becose the grease of the many hand handle the tool you understand easy from the liht color of the wood and for absence of the brown-red color the guns etc have...i handled enough toll like that in my life belive me!
Check the difference between this not treated...
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=15106&Category_Code=1
...and this
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
This is all metal also the handle
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-GERMAN-ARMY-MILITARY-WEHRMACHT-PIONEER-SAW-BLADE-KNIFE-CUT-INSTRUMENT-TOOL-/361332199032
at home i have few of thease....
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-German-Entrenching-Tool-with-Afrika-Korps-Canvas-Cover-/262263925044?
...Was made in my Country and i use one exactly like that in the army!
Check the difference between this not treated...
http://www.bunkermilitaria.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BM&Product_Code=15106&Category_Code=1
...and this
https://www.gunsamerica.com/949989704/German-G43-WWII-K43-SNIPER-RIFLE-with-Correct-Scope-in-8-X-57-Mauser.htm
This is all metal also the handle
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-GERMAN-ARMY-MILITARY-WEHRMACHT-PIONEER-SAW-BLADE-KNIFE-CUT-INSTRUMENT-TOOL-/361332199032
at home i have few of thease....
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WWII-German-Entrenching-Tool-with-Afrika-Korps-Canvas-Cover-/262263925044?
...Was made in my Country and i use one exactly like that in the army!
JGriffon
United States
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 05:05 PM UTC
the wood is shinny from the oil from peoples hands, really
JGriffon
United States
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Joined: December 01, 2010
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 46 posts
Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 05:22 PM UTC
It is just a hobby mate, and I don't care whether you accept what I have to say or not In fact please don't. Research the topic for yourself and then draw your own conclusions.... I have.
Vicious
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 03:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
the wood is shinny from the oil from peoples hands, really
Yep,take a wooden tool use them for hours everyday for long period of time and then you see the surface get shiner and smooth...why we leave the finger print on a surface?..our skin is oily
Quoted Text
It is just a hobby mate, and I don't care whether you accept what I have to say or not In fact please don't. Research the topic for yourself and then draw your own conclusions.... I have.
i know is just a hobby, but i care about wath you or others have to say ,and i accept part of your conclusions,not all thats it,but i can always lear something ,but you too,is a Forum Mate, if you dont care why you are here??...
Love and Peace!...
Anmoga
Spain / España
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Joined: November 18, 2004
KitMaker: 456 posts
Armorama: 333 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 02:32 PM UTC
Thanks JGriffon and Vicious for your comments.
Enjoy your hobby,
Angel
Enjoy your hobby,
Angel