It’s been a while since I have posted here, I neither build prolifically nor quickly……
Anyway, I am building now and would be very grateful for some input.
I am putting together a diorama of a 155mm GPF gun and its associated Panama Mount. I am currently building the ammunition stores that sit just outside the Panama Mount circle and have hit a wall in my research.
I have attached four photos that show my model (of one of them) and the actual objects in their real location.
I have not been able to find any wartime photos of the said stores and cannot tell if they were meant to be painted or left as raw concrete. They are now painted green on some walls, but the non-painted walls look like they may never have been painted.
The other question is to whether they had doors or coverings on the openings, to hide/cover/secure the ammunition and/or wadding used when loading and firing and what they might have been made from if there. I am planning to put wooden palings doors on all but one opening at this stage, as I don’t have enough munitions to fill all of the spaces.
Does anyone have photos of similar storage bunkers from WW2, or can point me towards the relevant internet site or book that would help to provide the answers?
Regards and thanks in advance,
John
Hosted by Darren Baker
155mm GPF ammunition storage question
strapper
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Posted: Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 12:17 AM UTC
1.90E_31
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Posted: Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 05:25 PM UTC
Hi John,
I found some of this stuff while doing the research for our GPF kit. I did a quick search again, adding "panama mount" to it, and found them again:
http://www.kadiak.org/panama/panama.html
http://www.sitkaww2.com/harbordefenses/navlist.html
On this one, search the island listings. The photos are there. Also search for Ft. Pickens in Pensacola. I think there was some info there too. Good luck.
Jon
I found some of this stuff while doing the research for our GPF kit. I did a quick search again, adding "panama mount" to it, and found them again:
http://www.kadiak.org/panama/panama.html
http://www.sitkaww2.com/harbordefenses/navlist.html
On this one, search the island listings. The photos are there. Also search for Ft. Pickens in Pensacola. I think there was some info there too. Good luck.
Jon
strapper
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Posted: Saturday, March 12, 2016 - 09:52 PM UTC
Thanks Jon,
plenty of photos there and some good descriptions too. Unfortunately no photos or descriptions of the stores I am trying to model as far as I can see.
Thanks for the links though,
John
plenty of photos there and some good descriptions too. Unfortunately no photos or descriptions of the stores I am trying to model as far as I can see.
Thanks for the links though,
John
thathaway3
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Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2016 - 09:39 PM UTC
I don't know with certainty how these installations were actually set up, but as an old Field Artilleryman I can offer some thoughts based on what I see in the pictures and actual experience.
1) While there MAY have been some published guidance or regulations on how these installations were to be set up, if these were US Army installations, you can BET that the directions of the local commander would have been implemented. If there were specific instructions in some Field Manual, or specifications, I strongly suspect that "local modifications" would have been applied, so for example in an area in which heavy rain could be expected, there would have been some provision made for keeping the propelling charges dry.
2) US soldiers are legendary in their skills of modification and adaptation. I would suggest that absent some VERY SPECIFIC photographs of the EXACT location you are trying to represent, you are safe in making some reasonable assumptions on how things MIGHT have been done, and unless someone CAN show you photographs of YOUR prototype installation to prove your wrong, there is little danger in modelling what make sense to you. Whether these bunkers had canvas or wood covering (a logical concept) I would suggest is up to you unless somebody KNOWS they were done differently AT YOUR LOCATION. If anything truthful can be said about modelling US equipment it's that REGARDLESS of what the Regs say, you can BET some unit somewhere did it differently! And as far as paint goes, you know the old Army saying: "If it moves, salute it. If it don't move, paint it." As long as there have been NCOs, they have known that the best way to keep troops out of trouble is to keep them busy and what better way than to have them paint stuff, thus providing yet another item to a)inspect, and b)keep the "old man" happy.
3)That said, one thing intrigues me about the bunker design. Clearly there are two separate compartments, and I would suspect that projos (and probably fuzes) would be kept in one and propelling charges in the other. Furthermore, I notice that one side has some semi-circular grooves cut into the concrete. I don't KNOW for certain, but I'll bet those were on the projo side. They LOOK like they're about the same diameter as a 155mm projo which weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. I'll bet those were designed to set the projo in on it's side after lifting it up, so that the crew servicing the piece could then pick it up and take it to be loaded. You could also keep the front end pointed into the bunker and attach and set fuzes that way too.
Be advised this is ALL speculation on my part just looking at the photos! Good luck on your build!
1) While there MAY have been some published guidance or regulations on how these installations were to be set up, if these were US Army installations, you can BET that the directions of the local commander would have been implemented. If there were specific instructions in some Field Manual, or specifications, I strongly suspect that "local modifications" would have been applied, so for example in an area in which heavy rain could be expected, there would have been some provision made for keeping the propelling charges dry.
2) US soldiers are legendary in their skills of modification and adaptation. I would suggest that absent some VERY SPECIFIC photographs of the EXACT location you are trying to represent, you are safe in making some reasonable assumptions on how things MIGHT have been done, and unless someone CAN show you photographs of YOUR prototype installation to prove your wrong, there is little danger in modelling what make sense to you. Whether these bunkers had canvas or wood covering (a logical concept) I would suggest is up to you unless somebody KNOWS they were done differently AT YOUR LOCATION. If anything truthful can be said about modelling US equipment it's that REGARDLESS of what the Regs say, you can BET some unit somewhere did it differently! And as far as paint goes, you know the old Army saying: "If it moves, salute it. If it don't move, paint it." As long as there have been NCOs, they have known that the best way to keep troops out of trouble is to keep them busy and what better way than to have them paint stuff, thus providing yet another item to a)inspect, and b)keep the "old man" happy.
3)That said, one thing intrigues me about the bunker design. Clearly there are two separate compartments, and I would suspect that projos (and probably fuzes) would be kept in one and propelling charges in the other. Furthermore, I notice that one side has some semi-circular grooves cut into the concrete. I don't KNOW for certain, but I'll bet those were on the projo side. They LOOK like they're about the same diameter as a 155mm projo which weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. I'll bet those were designed to set the projo in on it's side after lifting it up, so that the crew servicing the piece could then pick it up and take it to be loaded. You could also keep the front end pointed into the bunker and attach and set fuzes that way too.
Be advised this is ALL speculation on my part just looking at the photos! Good luck on your build!
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, March 14, 2016 - 01:43 AM UTC
On a side note, some batteries had more elaborate shell and powder rooms :
http://www.militarymuseum.org/TacticalBattery2.html
H.P.
http://www.militarymuseum.org/TacticalBattery2.html
H.P.
strapper
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Posted: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 - 09:49 AM UTC
Thanks Tom,
Yes, they were my thoughts about the magazines and the notches in the wall. That's how I've been setting it up. As for painting them, I was in two minds about camo or concrete, I guess I'll go for camo.
Henri-Pierre,
they certainly were a bit more elaborate at El Segundo than here in Perth. Although we did have bigger bunkers hidden around the back of the sand hills which stored a great deal more munitions (and other stores I would assume).
Cheers,
John
Yes, they were my thoughts about the magazines and the notches in the wall. That's how I've been setting it up. As for painting them, I was in two minds about camo or concrete, I guess I'll go for camo.
Henri-Pierre,
they certainly were a bit more elaborate at El Segundo than here in Perth. Although we did have bigger bunkers hidden around the back of the sand hills which stored a great deal more munitions (and other stores I would assume).
Cheers,
John
thathaway3
Michigan, United States
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 11:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
As for painting them, I was in two minds about camo or concrete, I guess I'll go for camo.
Like I said, unless someone can show you photos of the exact vehicle (or in this case installation) that you are modelling which proves what you modeled is incorrect, I'd go with what makes the most sense to you. Any "expert" who tells you that every vehicle or installation was ALWAYS done a certain way without exception is NOT an expert. The only exception would be if you included some item or technique which was not available at the time which you are depicting the model.
Looking forward to seeing the finished product!!
trickymissfit
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Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 01:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know with certainty how these installations were actually set up, but as an old Field Artilleryman I can offer some thoughts based on what I see in the pictures and actual experience.
1) While there MAY have been some published guidance or regulations on how these installations were to be set up, if these were US Army installations, you can BET that the directions of the local commander would have been implemented. If there were specific instructions in some Field Manual, or specifications, I strongly suspect that "local modifications" would have been applied, so for example in an area in which heavy rain could be expected, there would have been some provision made for keeping the propelling charges dry.
2) US soldiers are legendary in their skills of modification and adaptation. I would suggest that absent some VERY SPECIFIC photographs of the EXACT location you are trying to represent, you are safe in making some reasonable assumptions on how things MIGHT have been done, and unless someone CAN show you photographs of YOUR prototype installation to prove your wrong, there is little danger in modelling what make sense to you. Whether these bunkers had canvas or wood covering (a logical concept) I would suggest is up to you unless somebody KNOWS they were done differently AT YOUR LOCATION. If anything truthful can be said about modelling US equipment it's that REGARDLESS of what the Regs say, you can BET some unit somewhere did it differently! And as far as paint goes, you know the old Army saying: "If it moves, salute it. If it don't move, paint it." As long as there have been NCOs, they have known that the best way to keep troops out of trouble is to keep them busy and what better way than to have them paint stuff, thus providing yet another item to a)inspect, and b)keep the "old man" happy.
3)That said, one thing intrigues me about the bunker design. Clearly there are two separate compartments, and I would suspect that projos (and probably fuzes) would be kept in one and propelling charges in the other. Furthermore, I notice that one side has some semi-circular grooves cut into the concrete. I don't KNOW for certain, but I'll bet those were on the projo side. They LOOK like they're about the same diameter as a 155mm projo which weighs in the neighborhood of 100 lbs. I'll bet those were designed to set the projo in on it's side after lifting it up, so that the crew servicing the piece could then pick it up and take it to be loaded. You could also keep the front end pointed into the bunker and attach and set fuzes that way too.
Be advised this is ALL speculation on my part just looking at the photos! Good luck on your build!
Not taking anybody's build apart (or ideas), but I see some things. I lived with the 155 for fifteen months. Looking at the center of the parapet, and we see several studs where the gun will be setting. This tells me the center of the gun is bolted solid to the mount. Won't work with a wheeled gun. Probably a 5 or 6 inch Naval gun. The spades on a howitzer or long tom would have shredded those bricks like it was nothing. One can also tell that the way the projo bunker was built there was no plans for shooting rapidly. Would have been a chore fishing that stuff out of the bunker and up to the breech. Plus the bunker looks like it might hold 200 rounds at best, but probably closer to 125 rounds. Also you don't normally store powder and projos close to each other.
gary
Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 03:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Not taking anybody's build apart (or ideas), but I see some things. I lived with the 155 for fifteen months. Looking at the center of the parapet, and we see several studs where the gun will be setting. This tells me the center of the gun is bolted solid to the mount. Won't work with a wheeled gun. Probably a 5 or 6 inch Naval gun. The spades on a howitzer or long tom would have shredded those bricks like it was nothing. One can also tell that the way the projo bunker was built there was no plans for shooting rapidly. Would have been a chore fishing that stuff out of the bunker and up to the breech. Plus the bunker looks like it might hold 200 rounds at best, but probably closer to 125 rounds. Also you don't normally store powder and projos close to each other.
gary
That bolt ring does indeed suggest a fixed-pedestal gun, but the pit does bear a striking resemblance to this one on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_155mm_GPF#/media/File:155mm_GPF_Garden_Island_WA_1943_AWM_054026.jpeg
As for limited ammo, I assume those were for ready rounds, with a bigger magazine further back, possibly built into a hillside...
strapper
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Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 09:45 PM UTC
Hi Gary,
It is a wheeled gun (a 155mm GPF M1918), but fixed to a pivot, which the remnant bolts you can see are the fixings for the base plate. The spades were removed and two pieces of steel were welded to the bottom of the trailing arms to allow them to sit on a circumferential track on the outside top level of the mount pit. The gun pivoted on the centre pintle, with each wheel turning forwards or backwards as necessary, with the trailing arms running around the track.
As for projectiles and charges, would they have been stored in each side of the bunker, i.e projectiles in one side and charges (in their fibre cases) in the other?
Tom,
It is identical to the Garden Island photo from Wikipedia. In fact it is less than 2.5kms (~1.5 miles) south of the island that the photo is taken on. Garden Islan had two 155mm guns in Panama Mounts and Cape Peron (the one I'm biulding) also had two.
Here's a photo of the general layout of the model. I think my padlocks are a bit oversize, bit they'll do for now. I have assumed wooden paling doors on the magazines.
Cheers and thanks for your input,
John
It is a wheeled gun (a 155mm GPF M1918), but fixed to a pivot, which the remnant bolts you can see are the fixings for the base plate. The spades were removed and two pieces of steel were welded to the bottom of the trailing arms to allow them to sit on a circumferential track on the outside top level of the mount pit. The gun pivoted on the centre pintle, with each wheel turning forwards or backwards as necessary, with the trailing arms running around the track.
As for projectiles and charges, would they have been stored in each side of the bunker, i.e projectiles in one side and charges (in their fibre cases) in the other?
Tom,
It is identical to the Garden Island photo from Wikipedia. In fact it is less than 2.5kms (~1.5 miles) south of the island that the photo is taken on. Garden Islan had two 155mm guns in Panama Mounts and Cape Peron (the one I'm biulding) also had two.
Here's a photo of the general layout of the model. I think my padlocks are a bit oversize, bit they'll do for now. I have assumed wooden paling doors on the magazines.
Cheers and thanks for your input,
John
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 01:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNot taking anybody's build apart (or ideas), but I see some things. I lived with the 155 for fifteen months. Looking at the center of the parapet, and we see several studs where the gun will be setting. This tells me the center of the gun is bolted solid to the mount. Won't work with a wheeled gun. Probably a 5 or 6 inch Naval gun. The spades on a howitzer or long tom would have shredded those bricks like it was nothing. One can also tell that the way the projo bunker was built there was no plans for shooting rapidly. Would have been a chore fishing that stuff out of the bunker and up to the breech. Plus the bunker looks like it might hold 200 rounds at best, but probably closer to 125 rounds. Also you don't normally store powder and projos close to each other.
gary
That bolt ring does indeed suggest a fixed-pedestal gun, but the pit does bear a striking resemblance to this one on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_155mm_GPF#/media/File:155mm_GPF_Garden_Island_WA_1943_AWM_054026.jpeg
As for limited ammo, I assume those were for ready rounds, with a bigger magazine further back, possibly built into a hillside...
Looking at the photo you linked, it looks like the recoil will be taken up via solid concrete. Yet the next thing that puzzles me is the height of the breech to the brick work. Unless you seven and a half foot tall, you can't load that long tom! I have an 8" towed howitzer located near me (same carriage), and the breech is almost too high for the average person. This suggests that the brick work is nothing but a sub foundation, with a platform above it to stand on.
An M1a1 or M114 is a little lower to the ground when in firing position. In combat it was usually loaded by one man hefting the round into the breech (I've literally loaded several thousand rounds in my lifetime). I don't think we even had a cradle, as I never saw one. An 8" or 155 long tom (M115 carriage) would just about have to have the cradle.
A shore battery is a different ball game from a typical towed piece. Rate of fire (towed) is much more rapid, and the amount of spent ammo per fir mission typically goes from twelve rounds (per tube) to fifty or sixty rounds. A shore gun deals with counter battery fire much more intensely than a towed piece out in the middle of nowhere. A typical towed piece will have a minimum of four hundred rounds fused and ready to shoot (PD fuses). On the otherhand virtually every timed fuse is installed at the start of the fire mission (no matter which type). The bunker shown wouldn't cut it in anybody's section. Way too small! When your shooting, nobody is bringing a new load of ammo. Too dangerous, unless you have a well spaced battery. I can see that with a shore battery, but still be hard with the gun doing business. Kind of looks like the never had plans to do much shooting.
gary
strapper
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Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 08:16 PM UTC
Gary,
There is a wooden platform, wedge shaped, that can either be planks laid across between the trailing arms, hanging on the lower lip of each arm (can't find photo now of course!) or a wedge shaped platform built under the arms to move around the pit on wheels as the gun is traversed (such as this below) at Port Moresby
Also there is an ammo bunker at the back of the hill that was 5-6 times as large as the two shown next to the pit. This gun, and sveral like it nearby were for coastal defence only, firing at the occasional ship or sub I guess. There were two at this site and two about 1.5 - 2 miles North, which would have taken turns at firing to get a faster rate of fire overall. The actual gun I am building never fired in anger.
Cheers.
There is a wooden platform, wedge shaped, that can either be planks laid across between the trailing arms, hanging on the lower lip of each arm (can't find photo now of course!) or a wedge shaped platform built under the arms to move around the pit on wheels as the gun is traversed (such as this below) at Port Moresby
Also there is an ammo bunker at the back of the hill that was 5-6 times as large as the two shown next to the pit. This gun, and sveral like it nearby were for coastal defence only, firing at the occasional ship or sub I guess. There were two at this site and two about 1.5 - 2 miles North, which would have taken turns at firing to get a faster rate of fire overall. The actual gun I am building never fired in anger.
Cheers.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, April 03, 2016 - 01:47 AM UTC
Here is some info from a friend who studies coast defense artillery:
In the US I don't believe I've ever seen permanent ammunition stores, always a corrugated metal half-round shelters or just wooden structures.
"Strapper's " emplacement is very elaborate compared to any I've seen and I've seen many in the US, Panama and the Philippines. I believe the bolts in the center to be for a later reuse of the emplacement, having nothing to do with the 155mm GPF's.
KL
In the US I don't believe I've ever seen permanent ammunition stores, always a corrugated metal half-round shelters or just wooden structures.
"Strapper's " emplacement is very elaborate compared to any I've seen and I've seen many in the US, Panama and the Philippines. I believe the bolts in the center to be for a later reuse of the emplacement, having nothing to do with the 155mm GPF's.
KL