Hello All,
Im in the process of building my Tasca Sherman Firefly VC kit. I am wondering what colour both the exhaust defector and exhaust would be. My guess is that the exhaust deflector would have been SCC green, but what had black grime all over it that I can make with pigments. My guess on the exhaust is that it would have been steel in colour and then I can use pigments to simulate rust? But I just want to make sure.
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Sherman exhaust and exhaust deflector color
MattEa
Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 01:24 AM UTC
KurtLaughlin
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 04:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Im in the process of building my Tasca Sherman Firefly VC kit. I am wondering what colour both the exhaust defector and exhaust would be. My guess is that the exhaust deflector would have been SCC green, but what had black grime all over it that I can make with pigments. My guess on the exhaust is that it would have been steel in colour and then I can use pigments to simulate rust? But I just want to make sure.
Everything was olive drab; there was no bare metal. If/as the vehicles were repainted after conversion they would be acquire the new color. The M4A4 used gasoline engines, not diesels. The deflectors would be discolored by heat, not soot.
KL
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 09:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Everything was olive drab; there was no bare metal. If/as the vehicles were repainted after conversion they would be acquire the new color. The M4A4 used gasoline engines, not diesels. The deflectors would be discolored by heat, not soot.
KL
Kurt,
Matt is building a Firefly, so although the M4A4 was delivered in US OD I do believe the accepted wisdom is that the Fireflies were all repainted in SCC15 OD during the Firefly conversion process.
How thorough such a repaint would be with regards to repainting deflectors and exhaust pipes is open to question. I wonder whether a deflector, which I think might have had to be supplied later from US stocks, would be still in US OD as I didn't think any of the Lend Lease M4A4s would have been delivered with them (would they?)?
Matt, from a modelling perspective, though, unless you are painting a freshly washed Firefly, the accumulation of oil, dust grime and heat discolouration probably makes the exact choice of OD moot.
I'd paint it the overall vehicle colour, discolour the paint directly under the exhausts, add oily grime on top of that, then dust and dirt embedded in the grime.
The entire surface of the exhaust pipes will be pretty rusty with additional oily grime around the opening.
HTH
Paul
Posted: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 09:38 PM UTC
Were the donor tanks drawn from new or old stock? I thought they were mainly "reconditioned", so items like exhausts had long-since burnt off their factory paint and developed surface rust. Any new paint would soon go the same way, and of course most everything under the sponsons soon went a "dirt brown" dusty colour in service...
GeraldOwens
Florida, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 03:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Were the donor tanks drawn from new or old stock? I thought they were mainly "reconditioned", so items like exhausts had long-since burnt off their factory paint and developed surface rust. Any new paint would soon go the same way, and of course most everything under the sponsons soon went a "dirt brown" dusty colour in service...
Both. Even though M4A4 production ended in August, 1943, deliveries continued until October, 1944, as 1,200 surplus US Army training tanks were returned to the factory for rebuilding and modernization, before being transferred to the UK.
KurtLaughlin
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 04:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Matt is building a Firefly, so although the M4A4 was delivered in US OD I do believe the accepted wisdom is that the Fireflies were all repainted in SCC15 OD during the Firefly conversion process.
Sure, which is why I wrote
If/as the vehicles were repainted after conversion they would acquire the new color.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 05:02 AM UTC
A few points:
With the fixed deflector (which was totally inside the hull armor) the actual exhaust pipes would not be visible.
The kit's fixed exhaust looks to have five openings (one is between the deflector and the lower engine plate). The real item had two openings.
Even if the exhaust pipes were visible, it is questionable if they would be rusty at all. The similarly Chrysler-designed M3 medium used Inconel for the ends of the exhaust pipes. Other tanks used "corrosion resistant steel" that was welded using "columbium-stabilized rod", which indicates that the steel was type 321 or 347 stainless.
There are many photos of Sherman Vs that had the exhaust deflector installed. Any tank with half a hinge strap near the bottom edge of the rear plate, two bars sticking out of that plate near the top, or with the sledge hammer mounted on the top of the rear deck (rather than on the rear armor) had a deflector.
The tanks used for Firefly conversions were either newly made or remanufactured, in either case essentially brand new.
KL
With the fixed deflector (which was totally inside the hull armor) the actual exhaust pipes would not be visible.
The kit's fixed exhaust looks to have five openings (one is between the deflector and the lower engine plate). The real item had two openings.
Even if the exhaust pipes were visible, it is questionable if they would be rusty at all. The similarly Chrysler-designed M3 medium used Inconel for the ends of the exhaust pipes. Other tanks used "corrosion resistant steel" that was welded using "columbium-stabilized rod", which indicates that the steel was type 321 or 347 stainless.
There are many photos of Sherman Vs that had the exhaust deflector installed. Any tank with half a hinge strap near the bottom edge of the rear plate, two bars sticking out of that plate near the top, or with the sledge hammer mounted on the top of the rear deck (rather than on the rear armor) had a deflector.
The tanks used for Firefly conversions were either newly made or remanufactured, in either case essentially brand new.
KL
MattEa
Alberta, Canada
Joined: April 14, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 10:03 AM UTC
Thanks for the all the information guys! Would I be safe painting the exhaust a steel colour, and the the deflector an olive drab colour, then really dirtying up the deflector?
Also another question, the photo etch screen that comes with the kit, between the engine bay and the exhaust port, would this be steel or olive drab colour?
Also another question, the photo etch screen that comes with the kit, between the engine bay and the exhaust port, would this be steel or olive drab colour?
Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 12:12 PM UTC
Five exhaust openings? I haven't built a Tasca M4A4 yet, so this surprises me! Oh well...
MattEa
Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 08:37 PM UTC
There are only two exhaust pipes, but 5 slits in the exhaust deflector. I have seen this on a couple firefly photos online of really fireflies
KurtLaughlin
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 03:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
There are only two exhaust pipes, but 5 slits in the exhaust deflector. I have seen this on a couple firefly photos online of really fireflies
Can you give a link to those photos?
KL
MattEa
Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 04:02 AM UTC
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/firefly_tank/index.html
The picture in question appears half way down the page.
The picture in question appears half way down the page.
KurtLaughlin
Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 05:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/firefly_tank/index.html
The picture in question appears half way down the page.
Ah, that is a very early M4A4, SN 4873, about the 70th one made. The first 2400 or so tanks were made without a movable deflector, it being added via MWO. The tanks that were built with a movable deflector had that area open except for a sheet metal duct.
The Tasca M4A4 has an odd treatment of the rear end as it has several late features but only some of the movable deflector hardware, this fixed deflector, and no movable deflector.
KL
m4sherman
Arizona, United States
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Posted: Sunday, May 15, 2016 - 04:13 AM UTC