Inquiring minds want to know!
Michael
Hosted by Darren Baker
Dragon Magach 1/2?
MichaelSatin
Campaigns Administrator
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 3,909 posts
Armorama: 510 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 06:26 PM UTC
The interwebs have been strangely quiet about this kit now that it's out. Anyone have it yet? What do you think?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Michael
Inquiring minds want to know!
Michael
kennethc
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 348 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 09:09 PM UTC
I have one. I don't know much about the accuracy so I won't comment on that. It looks quite nice in the box. Dragon have once again neglected to add the lightening holes in the sprockets. I ordered the DEF Model sprocket update which includes a set of AFV Club tracks. The kit DS tracks are ok but I wanted the option of wearing them down.
Otherwise it seems to be quite nice and a fairly simple kit. parts count is a very light 360 and several of those are not used.
-Kenneth
Otherwise it seems to be quite nice and a fairly simple kit. parts count is a very light 360 and several of those are not used.
-Kenneth
kennethc
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 348 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Friday, July 01, 2016 - 10:46 AM UTC
I have begun working on this kit. Just about have the lower hull built up. Everything is going well. The Def Model sprockets don't fit the Dragon parts in any way shape or form (but then they were not designed for it).. However, you can use them as a guide to modify the kit parts as I did.
Firecaptain
Joined: November 03, 2006
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 118 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 03:36 AM UTC
Is there a "visual" difference between the 2 versions, or are they not really noticeable?
Thanks
Thanks
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 05:25 AM UTC
Yes, they are quite a bit different. A Magach 1 was built on an M48A1 which had a gas engine and low rear deck.
The Magach 2 was built on an M48A2C which had a diesel engine and a much higher rear deck, the same one on the M48A3 and later versions. The rear plate was also different due to the engine and rear deck. The A2C also had flat front and rear fenders as opposed to rounded ones on the A1. The A2C also had different headlights with them being in a two-light cluster as opposed to the individual lights on the A1. The A2C also had a "Y" shaped muzzle brake as opposed to the "T" shaped on the A1.
I have not seen the plastic yet, but looking at the parts that come in the box, they are the same as in the M48A1 box. This boxing has a bunch of extra sprues that include the A2C parts like the flat fenders, raised rear deck, and rear exhaust vents. It looks to just have get IDF specific decals and a couple of IDF water cans in it.
Magach 1/2 sprue shots from Hobby Search Japan
My M48A1 review with sprue shots
The Magach 2 was built on an M48A2C which had a diesel engine and a much higher rear deck, the same one on the M48A3 and later versions. The rear plate was also different due to the engine and rear deck. The A2C also had flat front and rear fenders as opposed to rounded ones on the A1. The A2C also had different headlights with them being in a two-light cluster as opposed to the individual lights on the A1. The A2C also had a "Y" shaped muzzle brake as opposed to the "T" shaped on the A1.
I have not seen the plastic yet, but looking at the parts that come in the box, they are the same as in the M48A1 box. This boxing has a bunch of extra sprues that include the A2C parts like the flat fenders, raised rear deck, and rear exhaust vents. It looks to just have get IDF specific decals and a couple of IDF water cans in it.
Magach 1/2 sprue shots from Hobby Search Japan
My M48A1 review with sprue shots
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 06:54 AM UTC
I gleaned a little more info after studying the pics some more. It looks like they reworked the A2 engine deck, vents, and rear plate to be more accurate. They deleted the raised armored bars around the exhausts, which were incorrect for this version. The rear deck on the A2C also sloped to the rear a bit, where the M48A3 rear deck was level and flat.
Sprue layout
It also looks like you get a second upper hull as well, no idea why.
New rear parts
Sprue layout
It also looks like you get a second upper hull as well, no idea why.
New rear parts
kennethc
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 348 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 07:37 AM UTC
The extra upper hull is for the 5 return rollers vs 3.
There are 3 engine decks and yes the corrected doors. The engine deck called out in the instructions (with gun crutch mount)didnt fit for me,the angle was wrong for the side plate bolt mounts toward the back. I used the one without the mounts because it was a slightly different angle and fit perfectly. It could have been me of course, the instructions are horribly convoluted. Ive been building for 30 years and the instructions were the worst ive come across.
There are 3 engine decks and yes the corrected doors. The engine deck called out in the instructions (with gun crutch mount)didnt fit for me,the angle was wrong for the side plate bolt mounts toward the back. I used the one without the mounts because it was a slightly different angle and fit perfectly. It could have been me of course, the instructions are horribly convoluted. Ive been building for 30 years and the instructions were the worst ive come across.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 07:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The extra upper hull is for the 5 return rollers vs 3.
Ahh, now I see the extra return roller mounts on the hull. Good eye. Forgot about the return rollers. The A1 had 5 per side, while the A2C had only 3 per side.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 08:31 AM UTC
I might just get this one, it sounds like some of the problems have been fixed.
The M48A2 and M48A2C were still gasoline. The lack of air cleaners on the fenders indicates the model is not diesel powered. Hopefully DML will do the diesel version.
The M48A2 and M48A2C were still gasoline. The lack of air cleaners on the fenders indicates the model is not diesel powered. Hopefully DML will do the diesel version.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 11:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I might just get this one, it sounds like some of the problems have been fixed.
The M48A2 and M48A2C were still gasoline. The lack of air cleaners on the fenders indicates the model is not diesel powered. Hopefully DML will do the diesel version.
Looking at the sprues diagram, the parts are all already there. Be nice to see the gun and cupola variations in the next release.
kennethc
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 348 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 03:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe extra upper hull is for the 5 return rollers vs 3.
Ahh, now I see the extra return roller mounts on the hull. Good eye. Forgot about the return rollers. The A1 had 5 per side, while the A2C had only 3 per side.
Not a good eye. I have the kit 3/4 built in my shop.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 05:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The M48A2 and M48A2C were still gasoline. The lack of air cleaners on the fenders indicates the model is not diesel powered.
That is right, diesel didn't come to the A3.
Quoted Text
Hopefully DML will do the diesel version.
They already have them available. Dragon already offers the M48A3 and M48A3 Mod B.
I reviewed the Mod B kit here.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 05:47 PM UTC
[quote]
That is right, diesel didn't come to the A3.
They already have them available. Dragon already offers the M48A3 and M48A3 Mod B.
[quote]
I was thinking more of the diesel converted 'A2C version. It was a little different than the converted 'A1's. There is, or was, one on display in Egypt. Some good pictures of the engine deck would be nice to see.
I have an IDF M48 in process, it got side tracked.
Quoted Text
The M48A2 and M48A2C were still gasoline. The lack of air cleaners on the fenders indicates the model is not diesel powered.
That is right, diesel didn't come to the A3.
Quoted Text
Hopefully DML will do the diesel version.
They already have them available. Dragon already offers the M48A3 and M48A3 Mod B.
[quote]
I was thinking more of the diesel converted 'A2C version. It was a little different than the converted 'A1's. There is, or was, one on display in Egypt. Some good pictures of the engine deck would be nice to see.
I have an IDF M48 in process, it got side tracked.
Gotrek58
Joined: January 11, 2009
KitMaker: 673 posts
Armorama: 286 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 08:50 PM UTC
I think, we have to wait for the Dragon Magach 3. And here's the instruction sheet:
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10393146
Isn't the Magach 3 converted from M48A1, A2 and A2C?
All needed parts will be in the upcoming Dragon kit...
MICHAEL
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10393146
Isn't the Magach 3 converted from M48A1, A2 and A2C?
All needed parts will be in the upcoming Dragon kit...
MICHAEL
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 09:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think, we have to wait for the Dragon Magach 3. And here's the instruction sheet:
http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10393146
Isn't the Magach 3 converted from M48A1, A2 and A2C?
All needed parts will be in the upcoming Dragon kit...
MICHAEL
Yes, with the Magach 3's based on the A2C's still with 3 return rollers. Also, on the A2 conversions the upper hull sides retained the slope above the tracks, while the conversion based on the M48 and A1 version that armor is verticle, like the existing M48A3 kits.
I have been looking for good pictures of the upper deck armor that shows, clearly, the modifications done to hook up the fender mounted air cleaners. So far, no joy.
I saw the Magach 3 a while back, and it has the 5 return rollers. I didn't check for corrections over the A3's.
There are some well done Dragon M48's here that show the real potential of these kits.
DG0542
Joined: March 04, 2015
KitMaker: 125 posts
Armorama: 125 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 09:52 PM UTC
There is a Magach 5 Local to me, which they know the history of the vehicle which was a capture Jordanian M48A1 (It has five rollers) and was upgraded with the diesel engine and other Magach 5 upgrades. So I noticed it had the IDF Air Filter Boxes, and some pictures of the Magach 5s have the US Air Filter Boxes, so I was wondering if the IDF Style boxes are a good indicator for which started out as Gasoline A1/A2 versus the A3/A5 they had gotten later.
Derek
Derek
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
KitMaker: 1,124 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 02:28 PM UTC
Did the Magach 3 come into service in the 6 Day War? My understanding is the Magach 1 and 2s, with 90mm guns were all that where available in 67 (and a large number were not in service yet, being refurbed from U.S. and German stock) and the 3s were not up gunned to the 105mm till between 67 and 73. Magach 5 was M-48A5s as replacements for 73 losses. Magach 6 were M-60 based.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 03:59 PM UTC
Don't know if this helps but M67 and M48 AVLB's were originally on M48A2 hulls and both were re-engined with diesels. The top grill doors appear to have been just swapped out with the ones with the intakes for the air cleaners. Parts is parts and what was in Stock for the other conversions was what was used.
I know the Israeli got the engines from US sources, so why not heavy forged pieces like top grill doors? And if think they're not, try opening and closing them all every time you check the fluid levels.
I know the Israeli got the engines from US sources, so why not heavy forged pieces like top grill doors? And if think they're not, try opening and closing them all every time you check the fluid levels.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 03:38 AM UTC
For those who asked, a sample for review is currently winging its way to me. I'll give it the third degree, with the hope it stacks up better than the Revell M48A2C I reviewed earlier...
BTW, in scouring photos of A2s I noted that some had the five roller mounts, with the intermediate two "empty", and had different hull drawing numbers cast in. My supposition is that the very early A2s were based on the A1 with its five roller stations, but as only three were used the hull was revised to eliminate the spare stations during production. Having both upper hulls in the kit makes it possible to model this, assuming the cast numbers can be corrected.
BTW, in scouring photos of A2s I noted that some had the five roller mounts, with the intermediate two "empty", and had different hull drawing numbers cast in. My supposition is that the very early A2s were based on the A1 with its five roller stations, but as only three were used the hull was revised to eliminate the spare stations during production. Having both upper hulls in the kit makes it possible to model this, assuming the cast numbers can be corrected.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 04:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't know if this helps but M67 and M48 AVLB's were originally on M48A2 hulls and both were re-engined with diesels. The top grill doors appear to have been just swapped out with the ones with the intakes for the air cleaners. Parts is parts and what was in Stock for the other conversions was what was used.
I know the Israeli got the engines from US sources, so why not heavy forged pieces like top grill doors? And if think they're not, try opening and closing them all every time you check the fluid levels.
That's good to know, thank you. I picked up the last kit at the local shop. I'll have to compare parts to the 'A3 I have.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 04:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Did the Magach 3 come into service in the 6 Day War? My understanding is the Magach 1 and 2s, with 90mm guns were all that where available in 67 (and a large number were not in service yet, being refurbed from U.S. and German stock) and the 3s were not up gunned to the 105mm till between 67 and 73. Magach 5 was M-48A5s as replacements for 73 losses. Magach 6 were M-60 based.
I think there was 1 company of Magach 3 type tanks in service in '67. I'll check when I get home.
odiesan
Joined: May 18, 2008
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 04:37 AM UTC
Actually the M48A2C had a gas engine also. It is just that the engine cowling among other modifications were made. Diesel engines were not introduced until the M48A3. The Israelis converted the Magach 1 and Macgach 2 to Magach 3 standards which had a Diesel Engine Among other modifications.
Modernized M48A1/A2C/A3. The modifications included British 105 mm L7 cannon, low profile commander's cupola, upgraded communication suite, a 750 hp diesel engine Continental AVDS-1790-2A with Allison CD-850-6 transmission. They were eventually fitted with Blazer ERA.
Modernized M48A1/A2C/A3. The modifications included British 105 mm L7 cannon, low profile commander's cupola, upgraded communication suite, a 750 hp diesel engine Continental AVDS-1790-2A with Allison CD-850-6 transmission. They were eventually fitted with Blazer ERA.
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
KitMaker: 1,124 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 03:41 PM UTC
What time frame was the IDF up grades to Magach 3? From what I read they did bot have time to get all the 1 / 2s (I think I saw 250 were still being brought to service level after receipt from US/ German stock) into action in time for the Six Day War. I'd doub they tried pulling off an engine and gun upgrade (plus all the other required upgrades needed) in the middle of a war.
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