Hi, Niels!

Read my statement again, and I'm certainly not trying to be a wise guy or a know-it-all.

I NEVER said that "ALL" US AFVs' Number Codes were painted Yellow...

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I logged-on to a site of Re-enactors dedicated to 70th, and I couldn't find ANY photos on their site of M5A1s, or M4/M4A1/M4A3-series Mediums that had ANY numbers painted on their Hull sides, or Turrets, EXCEPT for # "12". Neither did I find any info on WHICH COLOR the ID Codes of the 70th's Vehicles were painted, which leaves that little question open, as far as I'm concerned. I was just trying to help Bill out in trying to find a "12", or a decal set that could provide him with numbers to make his own "12". NOWHERE did I direct Bill to use ONLY Yellow Code Numbers on # "12", or if he should decide to build other US WWII Vehicles in future.

The impression that I got from Bill's opening post was that he was requesting help from the "allied gurus", (not that I consider myself to be a "guru" of ANY kind) to help him out with a subject that he isn't quite so familiar with. I would do the same if I were to build a specific Panzer. What Bill ultimately decides to do within this modelling project of his, of course is entirely up to him alone...

My info regarding the Yellow numbers was meant as a general guide, and not specific to the 70th's # "12". I happen to disagree with your observation about tonal qualities, especially those in black and white wartime photos. Many photographers of the day used different filters and different types of film, AND sometimes even carried more than one camera. Photos of any given subject could, and did, show varying tonal qualities in different photos, taken by the same photographer, of the same subject, on the same day, presumably at the same time of day. In looking at the photo of # 12, IMO, the Code looks more like it might have been Yellow, when you compare it to the quite conspicuous White National Star on this vehicle's Front Glacis. So if the 70th was such a "veteran formation", just WHY is such a GREAT BLOODY WHITE STAR still painted in such a prominent place on # "12"..?

Of course, I respect your opinions, and I TOO, am a big fan of Steve Zaloga's. His work is exemplary, to say the least. I don't however, remember ever reading in any of Mr. Zaloga's work that any numbers specifically applied to the 70th's AFVs were strictly painted in White, OR Yellow. They COULD have been painted in Baby Blue or Baby Pink, for all I know...

I think you'll find that a great number of vehicles in France (and in Italy) sported Yellow Bumper Codes and the much larger Vehicle ID Codes, not to say that White ones NEVER appeared, which I didn't say previously, either.

BTW, here's ANOTHER little tidbit for all to chew on:

Some US vehicles, M5A1s included, STILL sported BLUE/GRAY Serial Numbers on their Hull sides as late as VE Day...

PS- Other US Armored units besides 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions used Yellow for their ID Codes, as well- Especially Stateside...

That's very helpful as always, Dennis. What about the bridging code? Is it 16 or 15?

And did the tank likely/not likely have a plain white star on the turret roof?

I would prefer to do the "Dead Man's Corner" tank as it would be more meaningful in the context of the diorama I'm doing.

Hi, Bill!

The "Bridge Weight" should be "15", which didn't really matter much to US Tank Crews because they consistently over-loaded their vehicles with additional ammo, weapons, stowage of "official" and "personal" kind, and a lot of miscellaneous crap of all descriptions.

The US National Star on top of the Turret could have been there, or not, in the case of # "12". The Star's "top point" could face either towards the FRONT of the vehicle, OR to the REAR. Both cases are much in evidence in photos of wartime US vehicles. A better photo of # "12" would certainly help...

I should add that there were several different styles of Star insignia that were painted on top of Turrets and the tops of Engine Decks, on tanks and vehicles serving in the U.K. and North Western Europe:

"Plain" White Star, no "surround"
White Star, with segmented "narrow" surround
White Star, with segmented "medium" surround
White Star, with segmented "wide" surround

Solid, un-segmented surrounds were also quite common, and these surrounds were seen in the "narrow", "medium", and "wide"-styles, as noted above. To confuse matters still further, some US tanks were seen with combinations of "plain" Stars and Stars with surrounds, in segmented and solid styles, and with "narrow", "medium" AND "wide" surrounds, though usually not all on the same vehicle, which is pretty doubtful, anyway. Nevertheless, one could see a HUGE plain White Star on the Engine Deck, with a segmented or solid surround Star on the Turret Top, Glacis or Transmission case, with any of the other combinations on the Hull sides. Then again, not. Also, once again, the Stars on the Hull sides and Glacis might have been painted out during the late stages of the battle for Normandy and beyond...

Many times, the Stars on the top of the Engine Deck was obscured by stowage, and the same goes for the Star on the Glacis, with the addition of "sandbag armor"...

If you ever decide to do a US vehicle serving in Africa, or in the Mediterranean Theatre of Operations (MTO, i.e, Sicily and Italy), many times the National Stars were Yellow, with corresponding Yellow surrounds, but the Stars were changed to White, leaving the Yellow surrounds, sometime while we were still in Sicily. Towards the end of 1943/early 1944, the Stars and surrounds were changed to all-White, and painted in the various styles and sizes seen on US vehicles serving in the U.K. and North western Europe.

To add to all of the confusion, as I've said on numerous occasions, there was NO SUCH THING as a single, universal US OLIVE DRAB used by US Forces during WWII. TAMIYA XF-62 users take note:

US Ordnance advised that, "OLIVE DRAB" should be composed of "Carbon Black added to Ochre Yellow, and mixed to match "PULLMAN GREEN", (paraphrased). Almost everyone in this segment of our hobby recognizes "Pullman Green" as a "railroad color". This color can be broadly interpreted, and US Ordnance gave the Paint, Auto and Locomotive industries some leeway in producing this color. That's why one sees so many different shades of US OD in WWII color photos, weathering notwithstanding.

It STILL boggles my little mind how so many AFV and Soft-skin modellers can refer to OD as being "boring" and "monotoned". In reality, US OLIVE DRAB is ANYTHING BUT! The same can be said for British BRONZE GREEN, and Soviet 4BO GREEN! Who says that the German "Tri-color" camouflage has to be the only "interesting" color scheme seen during WWII? If one builds and paints a "used" scale US WWII vehicle, up to a half-dozen different shades of OD could be in evidence, and still be completely accurate. I'm talking about the different effects of weathering on paint- Sunlight, precipitation, wear & tear, you name it. I'm specifically NOT including dirt, grime, dust, mud, tiny touches of rust is specific places, rain streaking, plus oil, grease and fuel stains. All combined, IMO, a modeller who wishes to, can turn "hum-drum" OD into something that may not be a riot of color, but can still stimulate the eyes...

I have photographs showing 14, 15, and 16. The tank in question looks to me to be 16.

KL

Not disputing that- Kurt IS right! That IS a "16", in # "12's" case! Maybe I need new glasses...

OK, white or yellow, I haven't got the time or patience to search this one out, Archer has those sets of numbers and I sprang for them. I will take my chances that I got it wrong (the kit hull numbers are yellow IIRC). I ordered Archer's bridge set as well and will put on a "16" as the photo seems to indicate. Also got fresh D-Day shipping stencils. Already have Archer's stars (both ringed and plain). Just need to figure out if there was a star on the top of the turret.

Also received TMD's replacement resin turret, wheels set and exhaust deflectors.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so anal about these things!

Yes, there WOULD have been a Star on the Turret Roof, if the 70th followed US Army ID guidelines. I'm just not sure which style or size that # "12"'s particular Star might have been, OR whether the "top point" faces towards the front or the rear of the vehicle, in this case...