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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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Turps or white spirits for washes?
Phil5000
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2016 - 08:26 AM UTC
Hi guys. Which of these thinners (the ones from AK, not hardware store brands) would be most suitable for washes on armour models in terms of the best effect and gentleness on the paintwork?

I have also found that when I use oils for washes the pigments often separate in the thinners leaving an ugly grainy effect. Would using the wrong thinner cause that to happen?

Thanks.
varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2016 - 02:35 PM UTC
Quoting their website:
Our odorless turpentine is very different from our white spirit. Besides being odorless, this product is softer and less aggressive than our White Spirit. This property of the odorless thinner (Turpentine) makes it great for delicate, soft and subtle blending. This thinner is exclusive to enamel and oil paint.

So if you are concerned about paint safety, go for the turpentine.

As for the grainy look of oils, I think it may be because of the oil itself, either it has dried or poor quality.
CDK
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2016 - 04:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I have also found that when I use oils for washes the pigments often separate in the thinners leaving an ugly grainy effect. Would using the wrong thinner cause that to happen?


Well non compatible paints and thinners is the biggest reason why this happens, so it is probably the case. If after stirring them up they look fine but you can watch in real time the pigments clumping together and separating from the thinner (like oil in water) than it's a good bet this is exactly what your problem is.

Try some different brands, preferably starting with the same manufacturers thinner and you'll most likely find one that doesn't do this.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2016 - 04:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I have also found that when I use oils for washes the pigments often separate in the thinners leaving an ugly grainy effect. Would using the wrong thinner cause that to happen?


Well non compatible paints and thinners is the biggest reason why this happens, so it is probably the case. If after stirring them up they look fine but you can watch in real time the pigments clumping together and separating from the thinner (like oil in water) than it's a good bet this is exactly what your problem is.

Try some different brands, preferably starting with the same manufacturers thinner and you'll most likely find one that doesn't do this.


Concur...

You might have better luck using ENAMEL THINNERS. What ever you do, DON'T use Airbrush Thinners for LACQUERS- They tend to be too "hot"...
SgtRam
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#197
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Posted: Monday, August 22, 2016 - 05:05 PM UTC
I really prefer the AK Interactive White Spirit for washes, as I find in very fine, and allows for very good capillary action for the wash. I have tried turpentine and other products from hardware store, but none work as well as white spirits.

Vicious
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 03:40 AM UTC
If i have to thin my Humbrol Enamels i use the brand thinner,to pait with Oils i thin with odourless Turps,for washes i prefere withe spirit less oily dry quiker than turps and also flow better.

Exept for Humbrol thinner the others is hardwere store thinner,but before you need to do some test,every brand is different,i really uderstand this when i move from my country to Australia,i find the thinners more hot here,specially the WS i have tu use more carefully

I use "Diggers" brand thinners
SSGToms
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 08:38 AM UTC
I use Kleen Strip odorless mineral spirits. It's very light and dries quickly, and mixes beautifully with oils.
By the way, if you make an oil wash and you get black grains on the model, it could be that you have too much oil paint in the wash.
Phil5000
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 09:04 AM UTC
It never occurred to me that it might be incompatible thinners. I thought there was just acrylic thinners, and then oil/enamel thinners, and that's it.

I have been plagued by this problem for ages. I bought some expensive Schmincke Norma paint because it was supposed to be very fine, and then just used whatever artists turps was available. I don't know if Schmincke make a thinner for their oils but I've enquired at my art store.

Or perhaps I should switch to the AK or Mig Abtellung oils. They have specific thinners for them and are designed for this sort of thing. Perhaps I'd have better luck there. What do you reckon?

Thanks guys.

Oh and I should have mentioned in my original post, I would apply the wash to an acrylic surface, either paint or a clear coat.
Phil5000
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 09:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I really prefer the AK Interactive White Spirit for washes, as I find in very fine, and allows for very good capillary action for the wash. I have tried turpentine and other products from hardware store, but none work as well as white spirits.



What paint do you use with them?
CDK
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 05:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

It never occurred to me that it might be incompatible thinners.


The biggest problem when it come to oil paints is that thinner like mineral spirits and turpentine, while they cut the viscosity down a great deal, they aren't really ideal for the oil paints ability to remain intact at a chemical level. When you add these thinners, you're breaking the oil to paint ratio needed to perform as intended and they can no longer remain intact, hence the separation you see happening in the dish or on the model as the molecules try and reassemble themselves. It's all too science-y and I may have used incorrect terms but you may get my meaning.

Canvas painters will often add more oil medium to thin their paint, not the more harsh turpentine/spirits etc. This doesn't work well for modelers as it extends the drying time and we are trying to lessen it but it is actually a more correct way to 'thin' oil paints.


Quoted Text

Or perhaps I should switch to the AK or Mig Abtellung oils. They have specific thinners for them and are designed for this sort of thing. Perhaps I'd have better luck there. What do you reckon?


While I use and like Abteilung I wouldn't say that they are "designed for this sort of thing". That's just the sales pitch of these model products, "specially formulated for modeling" yeah... no. They are oil paints. Just like Windsor Newton or Grumbacher, both of those are in my paint rack as well and aside from catchy titles, there isn't much difference.

The key is finding and using a compatible thinner and ratio of thinner to paint.


Quoted Text

Oh and I should have mentioned in my original post, I would apply the wash to an acrylic surface, either paint or a clear coat.


That's fine and wont change much, as long as the paint is dry it's fine. You can even apply these over enamels and other oils *as long as they are completely gassed out and cured*, canvas painters have been doing it for centuries and there have been no problems.
SgtRam
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#197
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 05:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I really prefer the AK Interactive White Spirit for washes, as I find in very fine, and allows for very good capillary action for the wash. I have tried turpentine and other products from hardware store, but none work as well as white spirits.



What paint do you use with them?


I use this with AK Interactive and Ammo by Mig enamels, and Albeitlung Oils.

spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 07:54 PM UTC
I use ZestIt instead of turpentine. Much more friendlier to your health.
Chapman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 08:34 PM UTC
For washes, I use a variety of different artist brand tube oils, and leech out the linseed oil by using corrugated cardboard for a palette. Then I thin them in a metal or plastic paint dish with odorless mineral spirits. It will separate after a few minutes and of course the spirits evaporate away, so I'm typically mixing the filter/wash frequently in the dish with fresh spirits to maintain the right consistency.
I never have any separation issues of pigment but if the wash is too thin it will cause the paint to dry down with a cloudiness that makes it seem duller/lighter than the look when it's wet. In that case I adjust my mix to have a bit more paint.
For the thinner filters I've moved away from tube oils and use humbrol paint with their thinner and I can get a very diluted filter without any of the cloudy residual.
Phil5000
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 07:22 AM UTC
Thanks guys,

It seems this only happens to me. You guys have mentioned using artist's turps or white spirits ect. Why don't you get this effect? Why don't any of the video tutorials by the big modellings guys mention this? They just say oil paint with "white spirits" or "enamel thinners". It is most frustrating.

I will try some Humbrol thinners, with oil paint and with Humbrol paint.
Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 07:46 AM UTC
i have a question...you prepare the washes and you use them immediately or few day's later?...

you've tried to thin them down a bit less?...

I once prepared a Wash with Humbrol enamel thinned too much and left there for a moth or so and i found something like you have explained,was not anymore a wash but "wet pigments"
Phil5000
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Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 02:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

i have a question...you prepare the washes and you use them immediately or few day's later?...

you've tried to thin them down a bit less?...

I once prepared a Wash with Humbrol enamel thinned too much and left there for a moth or so and i found something like you have explained,was not anymore a wash but "wet pigments"


Yeah right away, and I've tried different consistencies.
Unreality
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Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 05:23 PM UTC
Well for my 4 cents, I used to use Abteilung oils for washes, but I found that mixing them ahead of time caused the pigments to separate. And that was with odorless mineral spirits.

These days, I used enamel washes from Mig/AK, and I only use oils for light shading.
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