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Tamiya's Ancient Churchill Crocodile Kit
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 12:11 AM UTC
I was wondering how good it is, as a representation of the tank. Some ancient kits are good, proportion-wise, by today's standards. Nobody seems to be putting out a new version, even with AFV Club having put out other Churchill models.
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 12:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I was wondering how good it is, as a representation of the tank. Some ancient kits are good, proportion-wise, by today's standards. Nobody seems to be putting out a new version, even with AFV Club having put out other Churchill models.
Its actually fairly good, although it has a few post war features. If you can score one of the OOP Inside the Armor upgrade kits and metal replacement barrels and tracks it really builds up nicely.
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 2,099 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 01:15 AM UTC
I thought ITA sets were all designed for AFV MKIII-VI, the Crocodile is based on the radically different MKVII variant.
mudcake
Joined: July 06, 2016
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 47 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 02:17 AM UTC
Its actually fairly good, although it has a few post war features. If you can score one of the OOP Inside the Armor upgrade kits and metal replacement barrels and tracks it really builds up nicely.[/quote]
What are the post war features?
What are the post war features?
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 05:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Its actually fairly good, although it has a few post war features. If you can score one of the OOP Inside the Armor upgrade kits and metal replacement barrels and tracks it really builds up nicely.
What are the post war features?[/quote]
I would say it's really quite good, but the tracks can stand aftermarket replacement, Fruil makes a very nice set, and an AM interior would be a nice addition if one existed. Turret and hull weapons are so-so, but easily scratched or as others have said, replaced by AM. The trailer is good, but requires the flame weapon fuel line, and some basic detail work. With care, the hull escape hatches, driver's hatches and commander and loaders hatches can be posed open, but again an interior is needed (I've scratched an interior for mine-- if you do this, make sure the hull armor matches the escape door thickness, which is a little thicker in plastic than the real thing. As for later versions I believe the engine intake filter openings and tow cable attachment points were slightly different. During the war, many Churchill crews removed the fenders under the turret ring to keep a bent/damaged fender from jamming the turret-- if you do this you'll need to re-work the turret ring and hull sides under the fenders to hide the open interior. If you don't want an interior, but want the hatches open, I recommend "plugging" the openings with Miniart's excellent NW Europe British tank crewmen. The Churchill MK VII Crocodile was used from D-Day through the end of the war, and there are several historical references for them-- Two companies of Crocodiles were assigned to US forces besieging Cherbourg, causing the Germans to surrender when they showed up. They were so devastating that during the Normandy campaign German troops shot Crocodile crews on the spot after they surrendered. The British went on to use them to good effect in Holland and N. Germany, many times the mere presence of a Crocodile was enough to cause defenders to capitulate. It's one of the most underrated of allied tanks. Ampersand has a book on Churchill "funnies" including the Crocodile with a couple of interesting photos-- one has a shot of a Crocodile in Normandy with some German and US fuel cans on top of the trailer, and some US helmets hanging from the turret storage box.
VR, Russ
goldnova72
Joined: February 21, 2009
KitMaker: 627 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:36 AM UTC
IRC there was some talk on Missing - Lynx some time ago ( long time ago )about the fuel trailer . Either it was a prototype Tamiya measured or a Museum mock up , something about the wheels are under sized and it should have 2 access doors on the rear not 3 or vise versa . Really should have paid more attention , but I'm more interested in Churchill IIIs & IVs . In the grand scheme of things does it really matter ? The kit looks the part , and I bet most of your modelling buddies wouldn't know the difference anyway , cause they mostly build German ! 
And a month ago or so someone posted pictures of Crocodiles with Cullin hedge row cutters . It seems the tank could break through the hedges ok , but the trailer got hung up , so cutters were installed .
And a month ago or so someone posted pictures of Crocodiles with Cullin hedge row cutters . It seems the tank could break through the hedges ok , but the trailer got hung up , so cutters were installed .Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
IRC there was some talk on Missing - Lynx some time ago ( long time ago )about the fuel trailer . Either it was a prototype Tamiya measured or a Museum mock up , something about the wheels are under sized and it should have 2 access doors on the rear not 3 or vise versa . Really should have paid more attention , but I'm more interested in Churchill IIIs & IVs . In the grand scheme of things does it really matter ? The kit looks the part , and I bet most of your modelling buddies wouldn't know the difference anyway , cause they mostly build German !
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
IRC there was some talk on Missing - Lynx some time ago ( long time ago )about the fuel trailer . Either it was a prototype Tamiya measured or a Museum mock up , something about the wheels are under sized and it should have 2 access doors on the rear not 3 or vise versa . Really should have paid more attention , but I'm more interested in Churchill IIIs & IVs . In the grand scheme of things does it really matter ? The kit looks the part , and I bet most of your modelling buddies wouldn't know the difference anyway , cause they mostly build German !
I'll have to look again, but there is only one door on the rear of the trailer, which folds down to form a step like the original. There is also an access hatch that runs the width of the trailer on top, which can be posed open-- maybe that's the second "door" you're speaking of? While building my kit, I did quite a bit of research, and learned there were actually two trailer configurations, at first glance they appeared the same, but there were slightly different mounts to use the poles to "manhandle" the trailer-- the kit supplies these in a bundle to be placed on top, with a later model trailer, which still saw action during WWII-- the trailers were interchangeable. Except for the flame gun which mounted in the hull machine gun port, the Crocodile was outwardly the same as the later Mark VII Churchills but the flame fuel supply hose ran under the hull in an armored housing before entering the hull. The Standard Mk VII was not sent to the front until really late in the war, but the Crocodile was fielded as a "funny" early, unlike most of the other "funnies" which used the Mk III and IV hulls. There is a lot of info on line if you look for it.
I agree, when built the kit really looks the part regardless of the "during vs post war" arguments. It's not a rare kit, but it's not easy to find either. I entered mine in a local IPMS show, and was surprised to find two other modeler's Crocodiles entered in the same category-- I'd gone for years without seeing any on contest tables. All three models were beautifully done, with one having an incredible winter whitewash scheme. I was astonished to receive the category first place, but was told it was because I'd scratch built the interior from on line photos, removed the fenders, and detailed the tank per an original Normandy photo. So it can be built into a real showstopper with a little effort-- it's one of my all time favorite tanks, as I said, underrated a little I think. The US Army in Europe had nothing to compare with it during the war, and was scrambling for a flame tank after D-Day, never really getting any in Europe, borrowing Crocodiles (and thier crews) on several occasions. The flame tanks the US did have during the war mostly sacrificed the main gun for the flame gun, and carried limited amounts of flame fuel, which was a practice continued into the Vietnam war. The Crocodile retained both. The limit to flame tanks is the duration of fire-- I think the Crocodile had about 10-15 minutes of fuel for an attack, which doesn't sound like much, but at the time, the standard man portable (M-3 I think?) flamethrower only had about 45-60 seconds of fuel. The ingenuousness of the Crocodile was you could drop the trailer and continue the attack as a gun tank when the fuel was exhausted. Sorry for the long history lesson-- but this is a neat tank, with an interesting history.
VR Russ
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 11:35 AM UTC
Churchill Crocodiles were also used in Korea, where the trailers made for a convenient place to put gear. The old Osprey Vanguard Churchill book had one of these on the cover. I built one for a museum display about the Korean War. I have another set of custom decals for them.
And I have another bagged kit in the stash.
And I have another bagged kit in the stash.
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 226 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 04:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
IRC there was some talk on Missing - Lynx some time ago ( long time ago )about the fuel trailer . Either it was a prototype Tamiya measured or a Museum mock up , something about the wheels are under sized and it should have 2 access doors on the rear not 3 or vise versa . Really should have paid more attention , but I'm more interested in Churchill IIIs & IVs . In the grand scheme of things does it really matter ? The kit looks the part , and I bet most of your modelling buddies wouldn't know the difference anyway , cause they mostly build German !
The Tamiya trailer is proportionately OK but is about 10% undersize (the tank itself is fine) compared to the surviving trailers at Bovington and Puckapunyal. Whether you feel that it is noticeable or important is entirely up to the builder - the trailer is a big beast and looks the part behind the Churchill.
I did consider scratchbuilding a new trailer but since I've down-sized to 1/48 scale these days, the project never hit the workbench...
Regards,
John
ninjrk
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 06:53 PM UTC
http://www.network54.com/Forum/78968/thread/1313534443/New+Release+from+Inside+the+Armour+-+35014+Churchill+MkVII-+Crocodile+Backdate
Here's a pretty good overview of the old ItA update set.
Here's a pretty good overview of the old ItA update set.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 07:40 PM UTC
I was planning on using this for the Korean War, and good news, I won't need the trailer!
I have AFV Club Churchill tracks in my stash. I trust they'll do for this tank?
I have AFV Club Churchill tracks in my stash. I trust they'll do for this tank?
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 2,099 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:50 PM UTC
Depends on which AFV track set you're using, the single part T-144 were the only type suitable for a late Churchill.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 10:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Depends on which AFV track set you're using, the single part T-144 were the only type suitable for a late Churchill.
Yep-- there's an early type and a late type track-- the Mark VII only used the late type, which has a kind of "chevron" design to the bar and cleat track-- the Tamiya kit comes with the proper track design. The AFV club kit track has an early design track that comes standard with the kit Mark. III and IV kits, and as an aftermarket set, but would not be appropriate for the Mark VII. I think they did come out with a late version track as a separate AM part later though, although I have not seen it.. Fruil also makes a good (and less fiddly) Mark VII track with the track shoes cast as a single piece.
VR Russ
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 05:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextDepends on which AFV track set you're using, the single part T-144 were the only type suitable for a late Churchill.
Yep-- there's an early type and a late type track-- the Mark VII only used the late type, which has a kind of "chevron" design to the bar and cleat track-- the Tamiya kit comes with the proper track design. The AFV club kit track has an early design track that comes standard with the kit Mark. III and IV kits, and as an aftermarket set, but would not be appropriate for the Mark VII. I think they did come out with a late version track as a separate AM part later though, although I have not seen it.. Fruil also makes a good (and less fiddly) Mark VII track with the track shoes cast as a single piece.
VR Russ
Lucky me-that's the version I have in my stash. Of course it's going to take time putting the whole shebang together.
easyco69
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 08:11 AM UTC
buy an AFV Club kit.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 08:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
buy an AFV Club kit.
They have one for the Crocodile?
erichvon
Joined: January 17, 2006
KitMaker: 1,694 posts
Armorama: 1,584 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 10:17 AM UTC
I've built a couple of them in the past and it's an enjoyable kit to build. I don't know about the finer points of it's accuracy but it looks right. Considering it's age it's worn very well.
Cantstopbuyingkits
Joined: January 28, 2015
KitMaker: 2,099 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 11:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
buy an AFV Club kit.
He just said in the OP that AFV Club never did any of the Churchill variants represented by Tamiya's kits.
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