Matt Szefer takes a look at and builds the Dragon Models M60A2 Starship in 1/35th scale.
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REVIEW
M60A2Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 05:40 PM UTC
Vodnik
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 05:59 PM UTC
Yeah, who cares about the hull that is several mms too short, so that all the armor angles at the front are messed up. Who cares that the wheel positions are all wrong - the whole suspension is compressed and there is larger distance between the 5th and 6th wheel, while all wheels should be equally spaced. Who cares that front fenders are a few mms too wide and as a result the actual hull front is a few mms too narrow. Who cares that the driver's hatch pivots, while it should slide sideways. Who cares that the gun barrel is way too large diameter, the searchlight is undersized, and the whole turret shape is off.
Yes, the lack of tow cables is a real problem...
My recommendation: forget about this kit existence, get the AFV Club one. Or Academy one as a second choice.
Yes, the lack of tow cables is a real problem...
My recommendation: forget about this kit existence, get the AFV Club one. Or Academy one as a second choice.
M4A1Sherman
New York, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yeah, who cares about the hull that is several mms too short, so that all the armor angles at the front are messed up. Who cares that the wheel positions are all wrong - the whole suspension is compressed and there is larger distance between the 5th and 6th wheel, while all wheels should be equally spaced. Who cares that front fenders are a few mms too wide and as a result the actual hull front is a few mms too narrow. Who cares that the driver's hatch pivots, while it should slide sideways. Who cares that the gun barrel is way too large diameter, the searchlight is undersized, and the whole turret shape is off.
Yes, the lack of tow cables is a real problem...
My recommendation: forget about this kit existence, get the AFV Club one. Or Academy one as a second choice.
OUUUCH!
Having read prior remarks of Pawel's regarding the DRAGON M60A2 as compared to AFV CLUB's, I've decided to go with the AFV CLUB -A2. AFV CLUB's M60A3 is also now available, by the way...
IMO, Matt has done a pretty well-constructed review of DRAGON's M60A2, even if he IS a bit "off" as regards to this kit's quite glaring errors...
Pawel- Isn't the DRAGON M60A2's Turret misshapen, as well?"
Chilihead
Missouri, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:27 PM UTC
The A2 was never referred to as a Starship, A2 or Deuce only.
Chilihead
Missouri, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:30 PM UTC
After publishing two recent books on the A2 and closely going over the current kits, nothing is close to the AFV CLUB kit, Dragon's kit is so jacked up.
MattSz
California, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:51 PM UTC
Vodnik- I'm not a purist, which checks every angle and every millimeter długości. Most of the people when watching finished model would not pay attention at these aspects, but they focus on details, painting and weathering
JavierDeLuelmo
Spain / España
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 06:59 PM UTC
A complete failure from Dragon. Sad!
Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:06 PM UTC
Pavel: I know you are a purist and that many aspects of this model are wrong, but how about going easy on the reviewer. He built the model and reviewed it primarily as a build project rather than an accuracy build. We are all aware that AFV Club has done a great job with their release and that is where to start from an accuracy stand point. This offering from Dragon despite its faults can still be identified for what it represents and many modellers will build this one.
Cantstopbuyingkits
European Union
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:08 PM UTC
The AFV Club kit is better.
HeavyArty
Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...the kit has some simplification mainly some of the dimensions and a few details are wrong. For me a few millimetres difference is not so important, but I know that some people pay attention to this aspect. ..Despite these drawbacks the kit is really interesting and allows you to spend a lot of time with the hobby and this is most important aspect for me.
He states right in his review that it has dimensional issues and if a perfect kit is what you are looking for, this isn't it, but he wasn't. Most know by now that the Dragon kit isn't perfect and whoever reads this review can research it more if they desire. The review is fine. It has no problems that would preclude the average builder from building it and it lets them know there are issues with the kit. Not every review has to be one that solely focuses on how inaccurate the kit is and which kit is better.
M4A1Sherman
New York, United States
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text...the kit has some simplification mainly some of the dimensions and a few details are wrong. For me a few millimetres difference is not so important, but I know that some people pay attention to this aspect. ..Despite these drawbacks the kit is really interesting and allows you to spend a lot of time with the hobby and this is most important aspect for me.
He states right in his review that it has dimensional issues and if a perfect kit is what you are looking for, this isn't it, but he wasn't. Most know by now that the Dragon kit isn't perfect and whoever reads this review can research it more if they desire. The review is fine. It has no problems that would preclude the average builder from building it and it lets them know there are issues with the kit. Not every review has to be one that solely focuses on how inaccurate the kit is and which kit is better.
And, as I pointed out earlier, I think that Matt did a very good job in putting a "/review" together- It was a logical, "step-by-step" review. He didn't "gush" over the DRAGON -A2, lavishing un-deserved praise over this kit by calling it a "gem" or "a little jewel" the way some modellers do when they review a kit. It's also possible that Pawel didn't really mean to sound quite so harsh in his critique- We ALL get a little carried away once in a while, though I think that Pawel was correct in pointing out the DRAGON M60A2 kit's many flaws...
Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 01:37 AM UTC
A decent build-review - thanks! Sure, the shape errors and other foibles are well-known by now, but it is nice to see the plastic and to read about the assembly/fit issues that I am also finding on the DML Magach.
Thanks, Matt!
Thanks, Matt!
Bravo1102
New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 05:14 AM UTC
For the price Dragon is asking for this kit, it is a very, very poor deal. The angles and road wheels positions are way TOO obvious that the kit can't be displayed near any other M60 kit without me tearing up over how Dragon got it so wrong.
Sure I held my nose and built three of the Academy Sheridans. But with nothing else to compare them to they don't look that bad and I just try not to look at any pictures of the real tank before or after looking at the built model.
But the misplaced road wheels and angles SCREAM out at me as a former M60 tanker. It's bloody painful to look at. How could they have gotten it so wrong.
All that aside it was a good build review. Thank you.
Sure I held my nose and built three of the Academy Sheridans. But with nothing else to compare them to they don't look that bad and I just try not to look at any pictures of the real tank before or after looking at the built model.
But the misplaced road wheels and angles SCREAM out at me as a former M60 tanker. It's bloody painful to look at. How could they have gotten it so wrong.
All that aside it was a good build review. Thank you.
TankSGT
New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 11:18 AM UTC
The fact that dragon put an M48 drivers hatch on an M60 hull is a glaring error. A few mm here or there is no big deal but what would the community say of they put Panther driver hatches on a Tiger 1. or Mustang wings on a Spitfire. To quote Oddballs Driver Moriarty, " its a piece of junk!" Thats not counting rivets its a major flaw. Tamiya got the hatch right in their first M60A1 from the early 70s. If you want a kit with a passing resemblance ,if you squint just right, to an M60A2 buy Dragon. This tanker who actually drove M60s and saw A2s in the field bought AFV.
chnoone
Armed Forces Europe, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 12:19 PM UTC
Many of us have waited a very looooong time till a new M60A2 kit suddenly showed up .... and then came Dragon, awaited with high expectancies and the fear of another M103 "disaster", it looks like both notions have materialized in the kit.
On the other hand is was to be expected that AFV Club would meet our,now even higher expectations thankx to Dragon's disappointment, and consequently pursuing their M60 family which they did.
So looking at quality, accuracy and price etc .... the choice now it quite obvious of which manufacturer/kit is the one to go with.
And of course, I don't like the prospect of having to go over AFV's kit to get the surface structure to more "realistic" appearance .... but other kits lack any surface or "anti-slip" at all so it's just revised efforts actually.
But I did notice that my behavior towards some new kits has change quite a bit since Dragons M103 "debacle" ... I am becoming more careful now if you like.
When Takom announced their "Gepard" another dream came true, finally something much more accurate than Tamiya aging only option till then.
But I did not "preorder" as I would have, instead I wanted to wait on some reliable pics & reviews (3rd and 4th road wheel issue). And then came Meng, although I still preorder their T-72/-90 stuff "blind", with their Gepard I still waited until I had solid input on both kits.
In this case I chose Meng, but it could have also been the other way around.
Now there are all these new M1 kits, myself not being that interested in the TUSK version, so I stick to my trusted Dragon M1's in my stash, because I don't really see any significant improvement over what I already have.
The same goes for the latest M1 kit with interior and engine .... great stuff honestly ... but I usually but figures in the hatches and would only need a rather "basic" interior to improve things.
Waiting for a 105mm/M1, which will defiantly show up soon, I believe I will still be "enthusiastic" in general, but my "changed" behavior being more reluctant to preorder straight away will continue to stay.
Maybe the true "essence" of Dragons resent approaches on long awaited kits is having awakened a general "distrust" to many, if not all, new announcements from either manufacturer.
Personally I do not consider this to be a good development robbing me of the usual "joy" over something long awaited, only to be replaced by .... "how bad is it this time?"
Cheers
Christopher
On the other hand is was to be expected that AFV Club would meet our,now even higher expectations thankx to Dragon's disappointment, and consequently pursuing their M60 family which they did.
So looking at quality, accuracy and price etc .... the choice now it quite obvious of which manufacturer/kit is the one to go with.
And of course, I don't like the prospect of having to go over AFV's kit to get the surface structure to more "realistic" appearance .... but other kits lack any surface or "anti-slip" at all so it's just revised efforts actually.
But I did notice that my behavior towards some new kits has change quite a bit since Dragons M103 "debacle" ... I am becoming more careful now if you like.
When Takom announced their "Gepard" another dream came true, finally something much more accurate than Tamiya aging only option till then.
But I did not "preorder" as I would have, instead I wanted to wait on some reliable pics & reviews (3rd and 4th road wheel issue). And then came Meng, although I still preorder their T-72/-90 stuff "blind", with their Gepard I still waited until I had solid input on both kits.
In this case I chose Meng, but it could have also been the other way around.
Now there are all these new M1 kits, myself not being that interested in the TUSK version, so I stick to my trusted Dragon M1's in my stash, because I don't really see any significant improvement over what I already have.
The same goes for the latest M1 kit with interior and engine .... great stuff honestly ... but I usually but figures in the hatches and would only need a rather "basic" interior to improve things.
Waiting for a 105mm/M1, which will defiantly show up soon, I believe I will still be "enthusiastic" in general, but my "changed" behavior being more reluctant to preorder straight away will continue to stay.
Maybe the true "essence" of Dragons resent approaches on long awaited kits is having awakened a general "distrust" to many, if not all, new announcements from either manufacturer.
Personally I do not consider this to be a good development robbing me of the usual "joy" over something long awaited, only to be replaced by .... "how bad is it this time?"
Cheers
Christopher
HeavyArty
Florida, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 06:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The fact that dragon put an M48 drivers hatch on an M60 hull is a glaring error. A few mm here or there is no big deal but what would the community say of they put Panther driver hatches on a Tiger 1.
I am not defending Dragon, but the hatch issue is not really a big issue to me. The M48 and M60 driver's hatches are pretty much identical. If built closed, Dragon's hatch is fine. The issue is how it opens. The M48 hatch pivots and swings to the right. On the M60, the hatch slides horizontally to the right. Dragon left the pivot point on the hatch. With a bit of old-school modeling, you can easily fix it and make the hatch slide. Not all kits fall together when you shake the box, which in my book is a good thing.
TankSGT
New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 06:41 PM UTC
Gino Tamiya got it right what 40 odd years ago and Dragon doesn't in 2016. They cut corners on a kit that retails for over $70. That's just crap. I expect a premium kit if I'm paying a premium price. AFVs kit won't be a walk in the park, lots of small highly detailed parts, but Id rather use my skills improving a good kit then saving a crap kit. I also got it for much less then the Dragon kit.
Tom
Tom
TankSGT
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 06:53 PM UTC
Just checked the latest Squadron circular it retails for $84.99 on sale for $67.99. really?
Tom
Tom
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 07:10 PM UTC
Not saying I don't agree with you, just that the hatch issue isn't that big in my book. I agree they screwed up what should be a better kit at the prices it goes for. I don't buy from US suppliers though, so the prices aren't so high, even with shipping. I have no real dog in the fight though as I already built an M60A2 a long time ago from a myriad of parts to get it right. If I were to do it again, I would start with the AFV Club kit too.
TankSGT
New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 09:25 PM UTC
I guess because I started as a driver it bugs the heck out of me. Stay well. I got my A2 from Lucky Model on sale. But the Dragon asking price is nuts.
Tom
Tom
TankCarl
Rhode Island, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 12:33 AM UTC
My 3 way Academy / dragon / AFV M60A2 build is far enough along that I can post images of the same assemblies at the same point on all 3 kits. Seen side by side by side the angle/ dimension issues are obvious.BUT, seen alone there is no reference, until you have a book in one hand,and a scale rule in the other.
I am glad he caught the no tow cable error,yet the KIT HAS THE MOUNTS for the cable.
I am glad he caught the no tow cable error,yet the KIT HAS THE MOUNTS for the cable.
M4A1Sherman
New York, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 07:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Many of us have waited a very looooong time till a new M60A2 kit suddenly showed up .... and then came Dragon, awaited with high expectancies and the fear of another M103 "disaster", it looks like both notions have materialized in the kit.
On the other hand is was to be expected that AFV Club would meet our,now even higher expectations thankx to Dragon's disappointment, and consequently pursuing their M60 family which they did.
So looking at quality, accuracy and price etc .... the choice now it quite obvious of which manufacturer/kit is the one to go with.
And of course, I don't like the prospect of having to go over AFV's kit to get the surface structure to more "realistic" appearance .... but other kits lack any surface or "anti-slip" at all so it's just revised efforts actually.
But I did notice that my behavior towards some new kits has change quite a bit since Dragons M103 "debacle" ... I am becoming more careful now if you like.
When Takom announced their "Gepard" another dream came true, finally something much more accurate than Tamiya aging only option till then.
But I did not "preorder" as I would have, instead I wanted to wait on some reliable pics & reviews (3rd and 4th road wheel issue). And then came Meng, although I still preorder their T-72/-90 stuff "blind", with their Gepard I still waited until I had solid input on both kits.
In this case I chose Meng, but it could have also been the other way around.
Now there are all these new M1 kits, myself not being that interested in the TUSK version, so I stick to my trusted Dragon M1's in my stash, because I don't really see any significant improvement over what I already have.
The same goes for the latest M1 kit with interior and engine .... great stuff honestly ... but I usually but figures in the hatches and would only need a rather "basic" interior to improve things.
Waiting for a 105mm/M1, which will defiantly show up soon, I believe I will still be "enthusiastic" in general, but my "changed" behavior being more reluctant to preorder straight away will continue to stay.
Maybe the true "essence" of Dragons resent approaches on long awaited kits is having awakened a general "distrust" to many, if not all, new announcements from either manufacturer.
Personally I do not consider this to be a good development robbing me of the usual "joy" over something long awaited, only to be replaced by .... "how bad is it this time?"
Cheers
Christopher
DRAGON/BLACK PLAGUE's T28 and M6 & M6A1 kits were no great shakes either, but that's neither here, nor there.
Christopher is right about DRAGON's efforts of late, but these "faux pas' occur in US/ALLIED WWII and post-war kits, but DEFINITELY NOT their WWII German stuff- I wonder why that is..?
Conversely, as Christopher has also said in referring to his DRAGON M1 Abrams-series kits, I don't see ANY reason why I should dump my DRAGON M1s in favor of all of the "new kids on the block", either. IMO, I think that the DRAGON M1-series kits, (3535, 3536, and 3556), are still very viable kits with which to model Abrams Tanks. Like every other model on the planet, all the DRAGON M1s need is a little bit of TLC...
I, too am waiting for the earlier M1 105mm-armed variants...
I don't know if that will ever happen from ANY ONE of the manufacturers, as the TUSK I and TUSK II-versions happen to be the latest rage that so many modellers are wetting their jeans over...
The DRAGON M60A2..? I'll pass. The AFV CLUB -A2? THAT is the one that I'll buy, thank you very much!
Posted: Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 09:48 PM UTC
I have to agree slightly with people on both sides. Matt's efforts in building this are fair and informative, yes he never got all of the issues, but he did provide information on some aspects and provided modellers with a look at how the model may look when assembled. What this does highlight to me is just how far Dragon Models have fallen in regards to the quality of their products.
M4A1Sherman
New York, United States
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 06:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have to agree slightly with people on both sides. Matt's efforts in building this are fair and informative, yes he never got all of the issues, but he did provide information on some aspects and provided modellers with a look at how the model may look when assembled. What this does highlight to me is just how far Dragon Models have fallen in regards to the quality of their products.
HEAR, HEAR!!!
Vodnik
Warszawa, Poland
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 05:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Vodnik- I'm not a purist, which checks every angle and every millimeter długości. Most of the people when watching finished model would not pay attention at these aspects, but they focus on details, painting and weathering
I apologize for the harsh tone of my comments - I was having a bad day. But my point stands - the kit is not worth the effort, considering that better and cheaper options are available. I understand that modelers can have various approach to their hobby and not everyone pays attention to accuracy and I have no problem with that.
But still, there is a difference between a decent kit that only rivet counters can find flaws in (there are no perfect kits, but I'm a modeler and I like fixing good not-perfect kits), and a kit so bad that basically no part is really correct...