Hello everyone, I have a question and hope that it is not to much of a newbie question.
When the tank crews applied the camo paint in the field, did they remove the tow cables, tools, spare track etc., or just paint over everything?
I have seen it modeled both ways, which is most common? I would imagine it would be quite a pain to remove everything first.
Thank you in advance,
Eric
Hosted by Darren Baker
Camo painting of tanks....
Floridabucco
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Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 09:45 PM UTC
Unreality
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Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 09:52 PM UTC
They typically left the tools on. But because of frequent use, tools tended to chip paint rather quickly.
RLlockie
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Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 10:51 PM UTC
Tank crews probably didn't paint vehicles much in wartime. The US army had engineer camouflage battalions for that and the Germans used a Werkstatt Kp. in each Pz. Regt. Having said that, evidence supports both approaches, with 'shadows' evident where tools masked the surface from paint applied after the factory. There is also the issue of why compromise your cam scheme with a load of uncamouflaged tools? Admittedly at normal battle ranges it won't make much difference but why go to the trouble of removing them when there is no clear benefit to doing so?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 - 11:50 PM UTC
I think for modelers it's discretionary-- I agree, in wartime you might paint everything, there's a famous photo of an M5 Stuart being painted in the field with everything in place, including rolled canvas. In peacetime it would be different-- but stuff would still get painted. In our Squadron in Germany in the 1970s we repainted the MERDC colors twice a year--once in fall and once in spring for the summer verdant or the winter scheme. Basic Issue Items (BII) like tools would be removed, but would also be painted off the tank-- all OD or Brown-- whatever we had on hand-- and stenciled with the tank number to prevent them "wandering away". Headlights, blackout drive markers, lube indicators, IR drive lights would all be given a coat of axle grease-- that's what we used to mask with. Crews painted thier own tanks using the maintenance section's air guns and compressor-- these techniques were passed down to us over the years, so I think it would be safe to say that's the way it was done in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, especially since many of our guys were veterans of those conflicts. We even had a vet that had served in the Post WWII Czech Army, the Wehrmacht during the war, and the French Foreign Legion before joining the US Army in Vietnam--he liked to touch up paint his tank with a cut-up mop--because that's the way they did it in the Wehrmacht where he'd been a tank driver. His name was SFC Cszenigy, he was a real character and one tough SOB. His Wehrmacht stories were fascinating about how they took care of thier equipment. I really think it depends on the time, place and circumstances-- but most tools and equipment would probably be painted at some point the longer they are in use, unless they are a brand new replacement.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
AikinutPGH
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Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 01:21 AM UTC
Look for some reference pictures of the era and vehicle you are modeling. I have seen them done both ways and the patterns can be very uniform or not.
When I served in the US Army in German our vehicle had their OVM tools stored to prevent theft, so the tools would not be painted to match the vehicle.
When I served in the US Army in German our vehicle had their OVM tools stored to prevent theft, so the tools would not be painted to match the vehicle.
panzer948
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Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 01:21 AM UTC
Wow, interesting story about SFC Cszenigy. Hard to believe we fought against him in WWII and then he later worked with us in Vietnam. Definitely a career soldier and pretty rare to be involved in that many conflicts over such a long period (and be around to talk about it). So was he then a US tank commander in Vietnam? Curious about his story on why and what ever happened to him.
Floridabucco
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Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 01:43 AM UTC
Thank you everyone for your replies.....That hat's story would make for an awesome book.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 05:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Wow, interesting story about SFC Cszenigy. Hard to believe we fought against him in WWII and then he later worked with us in Vietnam. Definitely a career soldier and pretty rare to be involved in that many conflicts over such a long period (and be around to talk about it). So was he then a US tank commander in Vietnam? Curious about his story on why and what ever happened to him.
Bryan,
Sadly I don't know what happened to SFC Cszenigy after I left the 2/11 ACR in 1980, but I suspect he's gone by now. The more I think about it-- I think he was actually Hungarian, not Czech-- and had been in the Hungarian Army post WWII--it was 39 years ago for me. He was a SFC platoon Sergeant at the time I knew him in 2nd Plt, F troop, 2/11 ACR. I was the 3rd Plt Ldr. in the Platoon next door to his. He'd been in various Cav units, but I think he was in both the 1st Cav and 11th Cav in Vietnam as a tanker. He was tall--and lanky, very physically fit, but chain smoked Camels. He said he was drafted into the Wehrmacht at age 17, sometime in 1942, and learned to drive Panzer IVs, and Panthers as I recall. He had the "opportunity" to surrender sometime in late 1944, so he spent a year in a British POW camp in England, was repatriated to East Europe after the war, and was immediately drafted into the Hungarian or Czech Army, I cant remember which) to serve his "penance" for being in the Whermacht, as he used to say. Sometime in the early 50s he saw how communism was going for east Europe, so he "illegally" emigrated to France one night. The French, being a practical people, gave him a choice-- go back to East Europe, (where they knew he would be shot as a deserter), or join the FFL-- so he ended up in Algeria and then Vietnam. The French gave successful Legionnaires the opportunity to become French citizens after service, but after a couple of years of unsuccessful civilian life as a mechanic, he emigrated to the US, where he promptly enlisted in the US Army, went back to Vietnam for a couple of tours in the 60s, and stayed in the Army. When I knew him, he was close to 20 years of US service, had married a German woman, and planned to retire in Germany. He used to tell us stories about how cold it would get as a German conscript, and during the summer of 1944, how they took to painting the panzers with brooms and mops since the "jabos' were constantly a threat. He used to call us "wimps" in his thick east European accent-- but he had the respect of everybody in the Squadron-- and really was the toughest guy physically and mentally I've ever known. He used to chum around with our WWII veteran 1SG, who had fought in the Battle of the Bulge. It was truly an honor to be a snot-nosed 2LT and serve with these guys-- I'm sure we really were wimps in their eyes, but they tried to teach us to survive. Cszenigy also spoke 4 languages fluently-- Hungarian (That's why I think he was originally Hungarian), German, French, English and could speak some pretty good Russian too. I had an incredibly interesting 30 year career-- and he was just one of many "characters" and personalities I've had the privilege to meet and serve with along the way.
VR, Russ
panzer948
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Posted: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 - 11:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWow, interesting story about SFC Cszenigy. Hard to believe we fought against him in WWII and then he later worked with us in Vietnam. Definitely a career soldier and pretty rare to be involved in that many conflicts over such a long period (and be around to talk about it). So was he then a US tank commander in Vietnam? Curious about his story on why and what ever happened to him.
Bryan,
Sadly I don't know what happened to SFC Cszenigy after I left the 2/11 ACR in 1980, but I suspect he's gone by now. The more I think about it-- I think he was actually Hungarian, not Czech-- and had been in the Hungarian Army post WWII--it was 39 years ago for me. He was a SFC platoon Sergeant at the time I knew him in 2nd Plt, F troop, 2/11 ACR. I was the 3rd Plt Ldr. in the Platoon next door to his. He'd been in various Cav units, but I think he was in both the 1st Cav and 11th Cav in Vietnam as a tanker. He was tall--and lanky, very physically fit, but chain smoked Camels. He said he was drafted into the Wehrmacht at age 17, sometime in 1942, and learned to drive Panzer IVs, and Panthers as I recall. He had the "opportunity" to surrender sometime in late 1944, so he spent a year in a British POW camp in England, was repatriated to East Europe after the war, and was immediately drafted into the Hungarian or Czech Army, I cant remember which) to serve his "penance" for being in the Whermacht, as he used to say. Sometime in the early 50s he saw how communism was going for east Europe, so he "illegally" emigrated to France one night. The French, being a practical people, gave him a choice-- go back to East Europe, (where they knew he would be shot as a deserter), or join the FFL-- so he ended up in Algeria and then Vietnam. The French gave successful Legionnaires the opportunity to become French citizens after service, but after a couple of years of unsuccessful civilian life as a mechanic, he emigrated to the US, where he promptly enlisted in the US Army, went back to Vietnam for a couple of tours in the 60s, and stayed in the Army. When I knew him, he was close to 20 years of US service, had married a German woman, and planned to retire in Germany. He used to tell us stories about how cold it would get as a German conscript, and during the summer of 1944, how they took to painting the panzers with brooms and mops since the "jabos' were constantly a threat. He used to call us "wimps" in his thick east European accent-- but he had the respect of everybody in the Squadron-- and really was the toughest guy physically and mentally I've ever known. He used to chum around with our WWII veteran 1SG, who had fought in the Battle of the Bulge. It was truly an honor to be a snot-nosed 2LT and serve with these guys-- I'm sure we really were wimps in their eyes, but they tried to teach us to survive. Cszenigy also spoke 4 languages fluently-- Hungarian (That's why I think he was originally Hungarian), German, French, English and could speak some pretty good Russian too. I had an incredibly interesting 30 year career-- and he was just one of many "characters" and personalities I've had the privilege to meet and serve with along the way.
VR, Russ
Wow great find in meeting him; as well as your experience-bet you could write a book! Hats off to you guy!
It seems he had the opportunity to spend time with many different countrymen/nationalities. Hopefully he enjoyed his stint as an American as well. I bet in the end he realized we are more similar than we are different.
TopSmith
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Posted: Thursday, November 03, 2016 - 07:47 AM UTC
I have seen photo,s of tanks painted with and without tools so either way would be OK.