I've finally started my super detailing project of an Israeli M109 'Doher'. While I've got plenty of pics and even downloaded everything I could find, one or two things will probably need answering. like...

1) how would someone make a powder charge set up? I can't seem to find any data on this.

2) To anyone who has served on one what would have been those little crew improvements? as I've never seen an AFV without them.

3)Where would be the most dirt while I've go some nice reference most of them look like inspetion time.

Thanks for any help, I've put out about $250.00 Us for all the after madrket kits and really want to do it up and right.

Josh #:-) #:-) #:-)

Hey Josh,

GREAT news on the start. yeah, this is one on the long range radar for me, so I hope that you take a few shots of the unfinished model or even stage construction shots.

BTW, did you not say (at AMPS) that you served with the IDF? If so, I forgot, which unit?

Also, the Merkava MK I has the basic paint on it. Now for the mud.......... #:-) #:-) #:-)

Dave (Bud dude)

Shiron,
The powder bags for 155mm howitzers are just that, a series of bags that are removed or added to achieve the accurate amount of powder to send the projectile a desired range. The bags are connected with a strip of cloth on either side and come in 8 increments. Charges 1-4 (green bag) are actually light green and have a red ignighter pad on the breech end of charge 1. Charges 4-7 (whitebag) are white and charge 8 is red bag, there is also a one-piece paper tube charge (M203) called Super 8. You achive the desired charge by "cutting charge", that is you cut the cloth strip between the incrments you need. You then load the charges you want and the rest is collected and burned at a later time. They burn extremely hot and make a great bon fire on cold nights. Each projectile has only one set of charges. The cut charges are not reused on another projectile. They should be pretty easy to make. Another option is to just use the steel tubes that the powder comes packed in. For safety reasons, the powder is not removed from the canisters until use anyway to prevent accidental lighting. The tubes can be found in the Italeri Modern Battle Gear set, AFV Club also makes a set of 155 and 8" ammo and powder canisters that can be bought separetely or come with their M-548 kit. I believe Verlinden also includes them in their 155 mm ammo set.

There are WWII powder bags included in the Academy M-12 kit. They are basically the same as modern powder bags. Here is a link to a diorama by Steve Zaloga that shows them well. 155 powder bags, M-12

As for crew modification, they are as varried as the crew, I can't really help you there. Especially on Isreali vehicles.

Dirt collects in the same places on most AFVs. The track and the rear of the vehicle collect the most. Also, if it is a muddy environment, the interior of the cab and crew area will also be coated in mud.

Sounds like you have a good project underway. I hope you post some pictures here when it is done.

Here's my next question. How was the weapon fired, lanyard, trigger or button?

Josh Weingarten
aKa shiryon

PS thanks for the help Gino. as I'm doing a full Interior and it gets paited a base coat of white, I plan on at least trying to get the grease stains looking decent. Let alone that wonderfully dirty floor.

Josh,
M-109 is fired using a lanyard. Artillerymen will never give up the excitement of pulling a lanyard and spewing steel and fire out the barrel and feeling the piece jump below you. Sorry, I love this s**t. The lanyard connects to a pin in the center of the breech at the rear of the cannon with a simple "S" hook. It is about a 36" long rope with a wooden knob on the end. A small primer, about the size of a 12 gauge shotgun shell, is placed in a hole in the rear of the breech. The lanyard connects to a lever that has a pin on the end that makes contact with the primer. The Section Chief simpley pulls the lanyard and the lever and pin contact the primer and fires the shell.

Any other questions, I will be happy to privide whatever I can.

Josh,

Gino is 99.99% correct. The IDF tweaked the recoil hydraulics of the turret to enable firing more powerful charges, thus the number of bags is somewhat different.

Surprisingly the turret is kept relatively clean and free of clutter and equipment. The last thing you want to happen when the barrel recoil is to stumble over a "something" and get yourself pancacked. Even when not firing, there is a lot of movement and activity going inside and the "little crew improvements" will only get in the way. The only thing I can remember is a bucket of water or jerrycan and a sponge used to wipe the breech once in a while. Steam would immediately alert the commander that it was time to switch to a slower fire sequence. I sure hope that in the 22 years that passed since I trained on an M109 they found a better way to monitor the barrel temperature.

Cheers
Claude

Claude,
Still haven't changed the way we moniter barrel temp. We still use a bucket and sponge on a stick to swab the breech between rounds so you don't ignite your powder prematurely. This bucket and rod are kept directly below the breech at the fore end of the crew compartment. Didn't know IDF used different powder charges than U.S. Even with latest varient, Paladin M-109A6, we still use same increments of powder.

Gino, I trained only briefly on an M109 and even then I managed to burn my hand by being stupid and careless and checking the barrel temperature by touching it with an ungloved hand.


I can't believe a better system was not implemented since then. It really border on insanity and stupidity. It's not as if an electronic thermometer is such a high tech item after all.

Back in the 80's the IDF used charges from 4 to 10. Charge 10 was used exclusively for high velocity, flat trajectory fire missions, such as knocking down buildings or tanks.

By the way, the IDF refers to the artillery as the Queen of battle. The king title being naturaly the perogative of the armoured corps

Cheers
Claude

Time for the nexrt question. Im working on the hydraulic rammer,how is this equipment manipulated. It seems you would need to pull it out, then swing it up to the right. Is this correct? I've got one of the TMs so I see how the pieces attach. I just hav'nt decided if i want a round on the rammer yet.

Second Question; anyone have a clear pic of the sight mounting(without sight)? The warrriors pieces are nice I just don't have clue as to how it's mounted.Thanks for all the help guys.

Josh Weingarten
aKa Shiryon

Josh,
You are correct on the operation of the hydraulic rammer. As for the sight, it is mounted on the left trunion (area where the cradle for the barrel mounts to the hull) it simply bolts on. It pokes up into the housing that goes through the turret roof and looks through ballistic glass at the aim point (aiming stakes, collimator, or a known distant object). The sight measures the horizontal angle from the azimuth of fire to the aiming point. This angle is called deflection. The azimuth of fire is always set at the default of 3200 mils (more accurate measurement, 17 mils to 1 degree, 6400 mils = 360 degrees). To adjust the piece, a deflection is given and the angle is measured off the azimuth of fire. Likewise, on the right trunion is the quadrant sight, used to measure verticle angle. It is attached to the pivot point of the barrel and measures the angle in mils that the barrel moves from level. When a fire order is called down to the gun, round, charge, fuze, deflection and quadrant are given. With this information, the crew can accomplish their mission and place steel on target and kill massive quantities of enemy troops. Artillery is the largest killer on the battlefield.

Well all the interior is mostly done and its gotten its white paint .now for the next two questions.as I head for the exterior

What color are the liittle light sets on the inside? some pics show what looks like silver reflectors others yellow lens.

On IDF vehicles there is what can best be called a shade that seems to protect the top of the gun mantlet. I call it a shade as this is the way it seems to operate.( gun lowers pulls shade out gun rises shade rolls iup . My question is this an IDF modification or standard issue.

Josh weingarten
aKa shiryon

Josh,

As far as I know, the shade you are refering to is a standard fixture for the M109A2 and is not something unique to the IDF. Its purpose is to prevent dust, rain and droplets of NBC to leak into the turret through the gaps between the upper gun's rotor shield and the turret. Older M109A1 (which are still very common), still have the older style periscope ballistic cover and naked rotor shield. The IDF "Doher" could have it or not, depending from which M109 variant it originated.

As far as the main headlights go, they have a sliver reflector and a clear lens.

Cheers
Claude

I've got an M109A5 open in the motorpool. I will shoot some pictures of the interior so you can see the lights for yourself. I assume you are talking about the crew interior lights. It's a relatively clean vehicle, but you may be able to get some wash ideas for your other post too.

ROb if you canplease get a shot of where the hydraulic lines go from the rammer. THanks.

Josh WEingarten
aKa shiryon

Well, if it's in the M109 album in my motorpool, then you are in luck. If not, then it's too late. I left work at noon today and won't be back until December. Gino can probably get the proper photos.

Want a real rush...try Finger popping a round off!!! We don't need no stinking lanyards!

Time for the next question fellas. on the outside of the rear door(hull) there seems to be some sort of rod(?) this can be seen velindens 109 book, on page26 just below the reel and on the IDF one on page35upper right pic. Any Ideas?

Second what is that drain plug for on the nose of the 109?

third what is stored inthe box on the left side door interior

fourth what is stored in the boxes on the rear turret baskets.

I'm interested in anything in general and specifically IDF

Thanks
Josh
aKA shiryon

Josh,
I have also wondered what that bar is for. I cannot find any referance to it in the TM. Think it might be to prop the door open, not sure.

The plug on the front by the travel lock support is an inspection port for the transmission.

The boxes on the inside of the cab doors are mainly used for storage of crew gear and other odds and ends. As are the rear boxes. There is no specific items that are designated to go in them.

Thanks Gino all I can say about this project is that it progresses,SLoooooooooooowly.

Josh
aKA shiryon