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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Why does tiger II cost so much?
KurtLaughlin
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That definition was gleaned from the Cornell University IT site.


Are you surprised that Cornell got something right?

Look, I didn't say there was anything wrong with the definition. I said your statements were not only not supported by it, but directly contradicted by it as well.

But that's really getting off on a tangent. The reality is that in a great many cases you *can* determine the cost of something by treating it like so much hamburger. You have to know what the price per pound is, and realize that it may be a polynomial function (or series of functions) rather than a constant value.

KL
Bravo1102
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 07:11 AM UTC
One wonders at that point in the collapse of the Reich, how many of the contractors actually saw their money.

This tank is ready for delivery, hey Der fuehrer's check bounced... oh well ... Hey look there's the Allies... so much for that contract.

Maybe that's another reason the factories were seemingly full of half completed vehicles.
d6mst0
#453
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 08:33 AM UTC
Most of the major defense industry was own or controlled by the Nazi party. Herman Goering control who gets what materials and at what priority. It was all a false economy. For material outside of their area of control that they needed to paid anyone. Many countries gave Germany credit fearing invasion if they didn't. Several leading German bankers where sent to prison because they finance the war.
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 03:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One wonders at that point in the collapse of the Reich, how many of the contractors actually saw their money.

This tank is ready for delivery, hey Der fuehrer's check bounced... oh well ... Hey look there's the Allies... so much for that contract.

Maybe that's another reason the factories were seemingly full of half completed vehicles.


That is one topic that has always made me wonder: Considering how most of the German/ foreign companies involved in German armament developed into flourishing business after the war, despite all the destruction and dismantelements the war cannot have hit those companies too hard...

Scarred
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 04:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

One wonders at that point in the collapse of the Reich, how many of the contractors actually saw their money.

This tank is ready for delivery, hey Der fuehrer's check bounced... oh well ... Hey look there's the Allies... so much for that contract.

Maybe that's another reason the factories were seemingly full of half completed vehicles.


That is one topic that has always made me wonder: Considering how most of the German/ foreign companies involved in German armament developed into flourishing business after the war, despite all the destruction and dismantelements the war cannot have hit those companies too hard...



Those companies recovered quickly because of the Cold War. After the war, the arms race began along with the massive build up of forces. So war torn companies that built Hitlers weapons were built back up to supply the West.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 04:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

One wonders at that point in the collapse of the Reich, how many of the contractors actually saw their money.

This tank is ready for delivery, hey Der fuehrer's check bounced... oh well ... Hey look there's the Allies... so much for that contract.

Maybe that's another reason the factories were seemingly full of half completed vehicles.


That is one topic that has always made me wonder: Considering how most of the German/ foreign companies involved in German armament developed into flourishing business after the war, despite all the destruction and dismantelements the war cannot have hit those companies too hard...



Those companies recovered quickly because of the Cold War. After the war, the arms race began along with the massive build up of forces. So war torn companies that built Hitlers weapons were built back up to supply the West.


Ever hear of the Marshall plan? A huge infusion of money to rebuild and restart war ravaged economies? That's what happened. Germany wasn't allowed to rearm for ten years after the war. German industry was not rebuilt to make arms. That came later. And the American subsidiaries of various German companies had done very well during the war. They also poured lots of capital onto German industry after the war.
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 05:54 PM UTC
Damage directly to many of the factories where not as severe as many make it. MIAG in Braunschweig was able to build Panthers post 8/Mai for the Brits. Volkswagen in Wolfsburg was functional as well. The problems often where getting raw or partial produced materials to the companies since the rail and channel network was down/damaged. Locks blown, bridges dropped in etc. It was quite difficult to damage the maschines directly. Same for many coal mines (both the lignite mines and the hard coal) who often suffered more from damage to the infrastructure (sometimes the power plants) than directly.

And the most important part of a 1940s/50s factorie survived reasonably intact as well - the skilled workers.

Dismanteling happened post WW2 but at least in the West not to the amount envisioned by Morgenthau. Marshal plan pumped money into rebuilding infrastructure and actually MODERNISING factories. At the same time the "Ostvertriebenen" from Silesia (the second "industrial center" or germany) brought more trained professionals mostly to the west (due to the bigger population in the zones that would become the BRD)
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 05:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One wonders at that point in the collapse of the Reich, how many of the contractors actually saw their money.

This tank is ready for delivery, hey Der fuehrer's check bounced... oh well ... Hey look there's the Allies... so much for that contract.

Maybe that's another reason the factories were seemingly full of half completed vehicles.


According to "Spielberger" IIRC the book "Jagdpanzer" the german army/government at certain points had to send couriers with attache cases full of Reichsmark to the tank plants so the tank plants would continue to deliver.

ninjrk
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2016 - 06:31 PM UTC
Its worth mentioning the level of inefficiency in German tank manufacture, which added significantly to the cost, especially for the short run/low volume items like the Royal Tiger. Those chalk marks on primer that we all love modelling are signs of real deficiencies in production!

John Parshall covers many of these aspects about 31 minutes in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ
Blaubar
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Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
Joined: December 15, 2016
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Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 03:35 PM UTC
Scarce resources, the larger gun especially, a lack of materials for welding (making good welds was almost impossible) and many other factors as everyone above has already pointed out lead to this. Also the lack of transport capacity of the railway system and coal supply did play a role. Constand bombing raids were problems neither the USSR (after their relocation), the UK nor the US encountered on this scale.

Something not mentioned is the price regimes in the Third Reich Economy. Companies were quoted prices in 3 categories, depending on your bookkeeping and accounting system, one or the other was more reasonable. As Henschel might have used different systems than Borsig or whoever, the price of the Tiger II would be different.
Gruppe 1) Tax exempted price
Gruppe 2) Tax deductable price
Gruppe 3) Special offer for extremely difficult and detailed parts
Number 1) regime was usually quite a bit lower than the number 2) regime. As an example take the comparisson and the development of the prices of the BR 52 war locomotive... (It's predecessor, the BR 50, was quoted at 175,000RM in 1939 (Gruppe 1)
Gruppe I - Price without taxed due at the end of the fiscal year H1 42 153,000 RM vs H1 43 150,000 RM
Gruppe II - Price received, but taxed due at the end of the fiscal year H1 42 160,000 RM vs H1 43 155,000 RM
Steam locomotives did not qualify or group III. I will chack back in Tooze's Economy of the Third Reich, maybe he lists tiger II's
If the statistics you are referring to used wrong categories of comparisson, it could add further to discrapancies!
FYI: a great book

https://www.amazon.de/s/?_encoding=UTF8&field-keywords=The%20Wages%20of%20Tyranny.%20The%20Making%20and%20Braking%20of%20the%20Nazi%20Economy&search-alias=english-books
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