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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Panther Ausf D circular fan cover
Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2016 - 06:19 PM UTC
I am trying to build dragon"s 1/35 Panther Ausf D Kursk version kit. I like to depict one of the earlier vehicles without zimmerett, with the spent shell casing hatch on turret side, no rain gutter above the pistol port and shell hatch.

Dragon gives two style of circular fan cover. One with a radial pattern cast grid, one with a swirl pattern cast grid. Which is appropriate for a relatively early Panther D?
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2016 - 08:17 PM UTC
straight , radial , no swirl ,
according to plan view of early production D in Spielberger book , page 31
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2016 - 08:28 PM UTC
From :
" 4 view of initial production Panther tank , Ausf D "
Pg 30 , 31 Panther & it's Variants , Walter J. Spielberger

urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 12, 2016 - 08:37 PM UTC

from same book :

GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 - 02:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am trying to build dragon"s 1/35 Panther Ausf D Kursk version kit. I like to depict one of the earlier vehicles without zimmerett, with the spent shell casing hatch on turret side, no rain gutter above the pistol port and shell hatch.

Dragon gives two style of circular fan cover. One with a radial pattern cast grid, one with a swirl pattern cast grid. Which is appropriate for a relatively early Panther D?


Jentz's Panzer Tracts book shows the preproduction fan covers on tanks manufactured just before Kursk, which had originally been cast with armored covers for the filler caps. When the filler caps were relocated, these armored rings were machined off, leaving a "complicated" edge shape. The spiral pattern grill opening was also smaller than the production fan covers (I believe the recent Zvezda kit has this style). MIG makes a resin version to backdate the Dragon or Tamiya kits, as do a couple of other aftermarket makers.

Thomas Jentz's research was more recent than Walter Spielberger's (they were longtime colleagues), and I am more inclined to trust his data.

That said, Jentz gives no date for the introduction of the standardized "round" pattern covers on the production line. I believe the spiral pattern round cover preceded the radial pattern in production, and they were used interchangeably (often as mixed sets) during Ausf. A production until the radial pattern completely replaced it.
urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 - 02:42 AM UTC
Any pics ? Gerald
varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 - 04:09 AM UTC
The information I have matches what Gerald said, the swirl fan cover was before the straight and would be more appropriate for a first batch Ausf D at Kursk.

It was the type also of the first Bergepanther, based on these early D.

This is the Panther Ausf. D preserved at Breda

urumomo
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Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 - 04:15 AM UTC
What is this about the filler caps and the cutting of the castings ?

Are you familiar with Jentz's Germany's Panther Tank the quest for combat supremacy ?
Is this info in there ?
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 12:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What is this about the filler caps and the cutting of the castings ?

Are you familiar with Jentz's Germany's Panther Tank the quest for combat supremacy ?
Is this info in there ?


My copy of the Combat Supremacy is in storage, but as I recall, it is discussed.

In the photo posted above by Carlos, you will notice a small curved area on the rim of the casting around the lower left edge of the left-hand cover (near the left edge of the photo). That is the remainder of the circular guard for the filler cap. The rest was ground off, as the caps had been moved to the center of the rear deck.

If you use an aftermarket resin part on your kit, note that the actual grill openings on these early castings were smaller as well, so a Panther Ausf. G photoetch screen would probably have to be used, as the Ausf. D/A screens are too large.

The deck of this vehicle suggests it was built quite early in 1943, as it has a blanking plate ahead of the actual filler caps. Later vehicles had a raised wading snorkel housing installed there, and after the snorkel was dropped, a small circular intake with a screen replaced it.
Chuck4
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Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 04:41 AM UTC
Am I correct in saying there were two different types of spiral grills, 1) very early ones designed for the panther prototype engine deck, which has radiator water filler cap right next to the circular radiator fans, and 2) slightly later ones designed for the production engine deck, where the filler caps have all been relocated to just behind the engine in the center part of the engine deck.

The very early ones, when mounted on production panther Ds, were modified by cutting off the triangular projection meant to protect the filler caps. So although the fan grill was round, the edge of the grill had a long straight section where the fill cap protection was machined off.

The slightly later ones were larger, and cast into the final round shape, and were generally round except for a small straight stretch to clear the removable engine cover.
Chuck4
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Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 04:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The information I have matches what Gerald said, the swirl fan cover was before the straight and would be more appropriate for a first batch Ausf D at Kursk.

It was the type also of the first Bergepanther, based on these early D.

This is the Panther Ausf. D preserved at Breda




The right hand grill is probably not original. It is installed in such a way that it prevents the removal of the bolt on engine compartment cover.
varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 12:25 PM UTC
I have not my references at hand, but while it may have been positioned wrongly, I really doubt it is not original.
Removed by original poster on 12/15/16 - 20:30:58 (GMT).
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Thursday, December 15, 2016 - 01:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Am I correct in saying there were two different types of spiral grills, 1) very early ones designed for the panther prototype engine deck, which has radiator water filler cap right next to the circular radiator fans, and 2) slightly later ones designed for the production engine deck, where the filler caps have all been relocated to just behind the engine in the center part of the engine deck.

The very early ones, when mounted on production panther Ds, were modified by cutting off the triangular projection meant to protect the filler caps. So although the fan grill was round, the edge of the grill had a long straight section where the fill cap protection was machined off.

The slightly later ones were larger, and cast into the final round shape, and were generally round except for a small straight stretch to clear the removable engine cover.



Correct, except that the redundant filler cap guard was circular. The vestige you can see is slightly curved.

And yes, the starboard side grill in the photo has been removed and reinstalled with the wrong orientation--there is a flat section that should line up with the center engine deck panel.
urumomo
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 09:45 PM UTC

You got this figured out , Chuck ?

here's another pic of what Spielberger says is an A :

slug955
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 01:21 AM UTC
Paper Panzer Production of Belgium do a pair of initial vents in resin if anyone needs them.....

http://www.paperpanzer.com/paper-panzer-productions/ppp35005-panther-d-initial-radiator-fan-covers/
Chuck4
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


You got this figured out , Chuck ?

here's another pic of what Spielberger says is an A :




It is an A, judging by the cast copula and absence of pistol ports on the turret. Also one of the surviving As has a asymmetrical configuration with an identical spiral fan grill on just one side, which tamiya used as the basis for its venerable panther A kit.

What I was concerned with initially was whether the large production engine deck spiral fan cover also appeared on one of the earlier Ds, not the initial variant that may have had a prototype engine deck spiral fan cover.
urumomo
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Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 09:36 AM UTC

Yeah ,
sorry - I didn't mean it like I had doubts

That is the one and only pic from above of any Panther in the book .
That and those drawings are it .
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