Getting back into building. Working on getting the details correct, but have a lot of questions like most others.
I've been looking and searching on who has pre-made dunkelgelb and other German AFV colors. I hope to stay away from having to mix color, to save time and I'm color blind which could quickly cause problems.
I've been leaning towards using Vallejo based on reviews and opinions of people. Seems to be a large consensus of people that prefer these paints over others.
I see Vallejo has a pre-made assortment for dunkelgelb (78.401), but it appears to possibly be dated and not stocked by many suppliers.
Has this been surpassed in quality by other manufacturers like AK? Are many of the Vallejo 'systems' not up to par compared to others? It seems the AK and now Ammo series appear to be leading the charge when it comes to specialty colors and effects.
Looking for advice. Thanks
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Matthew Toms
Dunkelgelb
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2017 - 09:17 PM UTC
Thirian24
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2017 - 09:37 PM UTC
I use Tamiya XF-60. I love the way Tamiya paints spray.
smorko
Joined: March 11, 2013
KitMaker: 94 posts
Armorama: 89 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2017 - 09:50 PM UTC
You are opening a whole can of worms there. Long story short we have no idea what dunkelgelb looked like back in WWII, what samples we do have are too old and varied to be credible, plus the writen descriptions do not match what most people believe dunkelgelb is. So just get a colour that feels right and go with it. XF60 is good, maybe lightened a bit. Vallejo is good too.
iakarch
Joined: May 19, 2007
KitMaker: 459 posts
Armorama: 421 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2017 - 10:48 PM UTC
Chris,
Milos is correct, my first choice is Vallejo Model Air 71.025 Dark Yellow. Tamiya's is good too but a bit paler. The Tamiya paint can be a little difficult, thin it well if you use it in an airbrush, the Vallejo can be used right out the bottle. The Mig Ammo Dunkelglb is way to pale for me, unless your going for a pale effect.
Milos is correct, my first choice is Vallejo Model Air 71.025 Dark Yellow. Tamiya's is good too but a bit paler. The Tamiya paint can be a little difficult, thin it well if you use it in an airbrush, the Vallejo can be used right out the bottle. The Mig Ammo Dunkelglb is way to pale for me, unless your going for a pale effect.
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Friday, January 20, 2017 - 11:46 PM UTC
I prefer Tamiya XF-60 lightened for filtering and weathering.It thins rearly easy with either one of their thinners,I currently use the Lacquer Thinner with good results.
Like everyone days,it's a matter of preference.
Like everyone days,it's a matter of preference.
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 12:10 AM UTC
i know this is 'opening a can of worms'. it comes down to personal taste and that is largely dictated by how each person perceives color/light. what looks good to one person, may not look good to the next person. throw in the issue of incomplete historical fact and we get the debate we have today.
trying to get a feel for the pre-mixed sets that Vallejo, AK and Ammo offer. i think personally it may be an easier way for a beginner to begin with such a debated color, while not having to mix colors in order to achieve said color.
trying to get a feel for the pre-mixed sets that Vallejo, AK and Ammo offer. i think personally it may be an easier way for a beginner to begin with such a debated color, while not having to mix colors in order to achieve said color.
GREENJACKET
Joined: June 15, 2006
KitMaker: 63 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 12:31 AM UTC
Hi mate. I'm lucky enough to be friends with a chap Bruce Crompton who has a lot of German armour and equipment. A lot of it is still in boxes, such as sighting equipment etc. My only advice is go with what you think looks correct. I use Tamiya,Vallejo ,Hataka,Mig and Humbrol. If you'd like to see some of my stuff to get an idea. Have a look at Matt.E.Models on FB. Or send me a message and I'll post some pics. You should see some of the original disco green colours that you wouldn't see on a model!
justsendit
Joined: February 24, 2014
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 01:00 AM UTC
My "Drunkelgelb" version is Vallejo Desert Yellow (70.977) which is similar to Irvin's Vallejo Dark Yellow (71.025) — just not the 'Model Air' version — needs thinning for airbrush use. Haven't had any complaints ... so far that is. Lol!
🎁 box of worms!
—mike
🎁 box of worms!
—mike
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 01:38 AM UTC
Well there are plenty of examples of artefacts which have been unhandled in boxes for years which can be used so surely those are a better starting point than an 'anything is fine because nobody knows' approach, isn't it?
PzDave
Joined: November 28, 2012
KitMaker: 319 posts
Armorama: 285 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 02:22 AM UTC
This color was painted on in the factory. So how many factories made the Panther. Tiger, Mk. IV etc.The deep brown and green was sprayed on in the field in a variety of ways. So the discussion of "nobody knows what the color was" is inaccurate.
I suggest also looking at any color photos from the period. yes, film can fade but the photos will help.
I use Tamiya rattle can TS-3 dark yellow. With weathering and lightening it works well. For the two other camo oversprays watch the Deutsches Wochenschau films from the war. There are many good boos with photos or drawings to help too.
I suggest also looking at any color photos from the period. yes, film can fade but the photos will help.
I use Tamiya rattle can TS-3 dark yellow. With weathering and lightening it works well. For the two other camo oversprays watch the Deutsches Wochenschau films from the war. There are many good boos with photos or drawings to help too.
PzDave
Joined: November 28, 2012
KitMaker: 319 posts
Armorama: 285 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 02:23 AM UTC
Typo..."books"
Vicious
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 03:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This color was painted on in the factory. So how many factories made the Panther. Tiger, Mk. IV etc.The deep brown and green was sprayed on in the field in a variety of ways. So the discussion of "nobody knows what the color was" is inaccurate.
I suggest also looking at any color photos from the period. yes, film can fade but the photos will help.
I use Tamiya rattle can TS-3 dark yellow. With weathering and lightening it works well. For the two other camo oversprays watch the Deutsches Wochenschau films from the war. There are many good boos with photos or drawings to help too.
I think the problem is not how many factory builds panther,tiger etc...but how many different suppliers of pait they have
You can not really should rely 100% on period photographs because a that time the color pictures were still a relatively new technology, and the color rendering was not at all good
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 04:04 AM UTC
Just to keep the can of worms wiggling . . .
I have to disagree with David above. When the restoration folks at the Patton Museum took the floor plates off the 251/7 it was noted that there was a fair variety of shades of this color.
Components from different sub-contractors varied greatly in shade even though all paints were mixed using the same military spec.
I have to disagree with David above. When the restoration folks at the Patton Museum took the floor plates off the 251/7 it was noted that there was a fair variety of shades of this color.
Components from different sub-contractors varied greatly in shade even though all paints were mixed using the same military spec.
wedgetail53
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 658 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 04:52 AM UTC
Just to throw in my ten cents worth . . .
I use a mixture of 50:50 Tamiya Dark Yellow and Wooden Deck Tan, which gives a pretty light result, but it soon looks better with the application of some filter. Better to go too light than too dark - light paint can be darkened quite easily, but it's somewhat more difficult to lighten dark paint.
Regards
Rob
I use a mixture of 50:50 Tamiya Dark Yellow and Wooden Deck Tan, which gives a pretty light result, but it soon looks better with the application of some filter. Better to go too light than too dark - light paint can be darkened quite easily, but it's somewhat more difficult to lighten dark paint.
Regards
Rob
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 09:04 PM UTC
some great info, thanks everyone.
something i hadn't considered, but is likely was the possibility of variants the Germans were using. i know the colors in the field would vary due to what they had to work with. what i hadn't considered was the possibility of this happening at the factory, not surprising honestly.
something i hadn't considered, but is likely was the possibility of variants the Germans were using. i know the colors in the field would vary due to what they had to work with. what i hadn't considered was the possibility of this happening at the factory, not surprising honestly.
iakarch
Joined: May 19, 2007
KitMaker: 459 posts
Armorama: 421 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2017 - 10:41 PM UTC
Chris,
In the last year of the war the german chemical industry like all armaments industries had to make substitutions for raw materials they could no longer obtain. Chemical based pigments were pioneered by Germany. The problem must have been the pigments they were using wasn't stable and was prone to variation in tint and color shift in aging. There is no guaranty that the color you see now is exactly the same as it was 75 years ago.
In the last year of the war the german chemical industry like all armaments industries had to make substitutions for raw materials they could no longer obtain. Chemical based pigments were pioneered by Germany. The problem must have been the pigments they were using wasn't stable and was prone to variation in tint and color shift in aging. There is no guaranty that the color you see now is exactly the same as it was 75 years ago.
srmalloy
Joined: April 15, 2012
KitMaker: 336 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 26, 2017 - 10:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You are opening a whole can of worms there. Long story short we have no idea what dunkelgelb looked like back in WWII, what samples we do have are too old and varied to be credible, plus the writen descriptions do not match what most people believe dunkelgelb is. So just get a colour that feels right and go with it.
And if you were to make up different shades/tints of Dunkelgelb and use them for different vehicles on a manufacturer-specific basis (i.e., Hanomag SdKfz 251s in one shade, NSU Kettenkrads in a second, DB's Pzkpfw IIIs in a third, and Krupp's Pzkpfw IVs in a fourth), you'd get something closer to what was actually fielded, since even with the paint standards defined by RAL there was no single uniform source for paint, with each manufacturer contracting separately for orders.
iakarch
Joined: May 19, 2007
KitMaker: 459 posts
Armorama: 421 posts
Posted: Friday, January 27, 2017 - 01:25 AM UTC
Maybe we should admit nobody really knows and leave it at that.
ButterFingers
Joined: March 09, 2017
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 2 posts
Posted: Monday, March 20, 2017 - 01:06 AM UTC
A bit off topic but I think that it's a good thing that paint jobs varied from tank to tank. Model makers can then use their own unique shade of dunklegelb.
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