OK, all you Shermanaholics. I'm getting the Italeri Sherman with wading gear. The description is M4A2, but the pics show a 47degree hull front, large drivers/co-drivers hatches and a vision cupola on the turret. The references that I have would make this a late M4A3? The only difference may be the engine ( diesel M4A2 vs. petrol M4A3) deck? can anyone clear this up for me please?
I'm thinking about making a European theatre vehicle ( obviously without the wooden planks on the sides!)
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Italeri USMC Sherman
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
KitMaker: 4,307 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 20, 2004 - 09:45 PM UTC
ukgeoff
Joined: May 03, 2002
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Posted: Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:35 PM UTC
The kit is an M4A3, Italeri have just added an M4A2 engine deck (the A3 deck has to be cut out). Unfortunately it takes more than that to change an A3 into an A2. The angle of the rear overhang and exhaust arangement is still wrong for the A2. It does make a reasonable A3 OOB, however, so could be a cheaper alternative to the Tamiya version.
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
KitMaker: 4,307 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:42 PM UTC
Many thanks ukgeoff,
M4A3 it is.
M4A3 it is.
AntPhillips
Joined: January 02, 2003
KitMaker: 118 posts
Armorama: 93 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 07:18 AM UTC
Hi Dave,
The kit makes a pretty good M4A3 OOB, it includes the later high bustle turret with the oval loaders hatch, also includes a set of later pressed wheels in addition to the regular 5-spoke wheels, although mine suffered from sink marks in all but a couple.
Happy modelling
Ant
The kit makes a pretty good M4A3 OOB, it includes the later high bustle turret with the oval loaders hatch, also includes a set of later pressed wheels in addition to the regular 5-spoke wheels, although mine suffered from sink marks in all but a couple.
Happy modelling
Ant
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 07:37 AM UTC
I built the kit and just ordered another. Fine model. If you are going to make the USMC version, I would recommend that you throw away the plastic simulated wooden side boards and rough up some balsa planks as a substitute. Edward makes an aftermarket kit that contains some fine mesh covers for the hatches, but beyond that it is an expensive rip off containing parts that only Gunnie would be able to place on a model and look good (IMHO).
DJ
DJ
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 03:06 PM UTC
Howdy fellas,
So, the question remains (kinda). Would the Italeri M4A3 complete with wading trunks be a candidate for a Sherman that came ashore at Normandy?
If not, why. And if so, what (hopefully) minor changes would be necessary for a decent portrayal without having to submit to the 'rivet-counters'.
Tread.
So, the question remains (kinda). Would the Italeri M4A3 complete with wading trunks be a candidate for a Sherman that came ashore at Normandy?
If not, why. And if so, what (hopefully) minor changes would be necessary for a decent portrayal without having to submit to the 'rivet-counters'.
Tread.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 03:13 PM UTC
I'm fairly sure that the M4A3 was not in the initial landings and that the M4A1 75mm was the main tank in use (also used as the DD tanks). I do not know what the other Allied nations may have used.
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 21, 2004 - 03:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
So, the question remains (kinda). Would the Italeri M4A3 complete with wading trunks be a candidate for a Sherman that came ashore at Normandy?
If not, why. And if so, what (hopefully) minor changes would be necessary for a decent portrayal without having to submit to the 'rivet-counters'.
Tread -- I hope you don't mean that your aversion to rivet-counting means you'd sacrifice historical accuracy.
For D-Day or the first few weeks after, I'd suggest an M4A4 (Brit or Canadian), an M4 (like the Tamiya kit) or an M4A1 (like the Formations M4A1 with applique armor). Lots of photos out there -- I'd suggest Concord's M4 Sherman at War by Steve Zaloga. It also shows Free French M4A2s landing at Omaha in August and 2nd AD M4A1(76mm) tanks in July. No M4A3(75mm, wet stowage -- like the Italeri kit) until months later.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 03:03 AM UTC
Howdy fellas,
Many thx for the replies. Not being an absolute Sherman 'expert' (although I'm working on it slowly
), I appreciate the input.
So, could I build the Italeri cast hull M4A1and mount the M4A3 wading trunks onto the rear deck? Or is there a slope difference or something to worry about.
To help you see where I'm going with this, what I'm doing is building an oversize (approx. 2 1/2 feet X 3 1/2 feet) D-Day diorama that will depict an arriving Sherman (complete with trunks) driving by a german bunker (the bunker itself will be approx. 1 1/2 feet wide X 1 foot deep X 5" high). As viewed from the front, the dio will be an 'uphill' setting, with the bunker at the top and to the left, with the Sherman driving up the road just in front, and down to the right of the bunker. That is the basic premise.
Whadaya think?
Tread.
Many thx for the replies. Not being an absolute Sherman 'expert' (although I'm working on it slowly
), I appreciate the input.So, could I build the Italeri cast hull M4A1and mount the M4A3 wading trunks onto the rear deck? Or is there a slope difference or something to worry about.
To help you see where I'm going with this, what I'm doing is building an oversize (approx. 2 1/2 feet X 3 1/2 feet) D-Day diorama that will depict an arriving Sherman (complete with trunks) driving by a german bunker (the bunker itself will be approx. 1 1/2 feet wide X 1 foot deep X 5" high). As viewed from the front, the dio will be an 'uphill' setting, with the bunker at the top and to the left, with the Sherman driving up the road just in front, and down to the right of the bunker. That is the basic premise.
Whadaya think?
Tread.
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
Armorama: 1,797 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 05:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So, could I build the Italeri cast hull M4A1and mount the M4A3 wading trunks onto the rear deck? Or is there a slope difference or something to worry about.
To help you see where I'm going with this, what I'm doing is building an oversize (approx. 2 1/2 feet X 3 1/2 feet) D-Day diorama that will depict an arriving Sherman (complete with trunks) driving by a german bunker (the bunker itself will be approx. 1 1/2 feet wide X 1 foot deep X 5" high). As viewed from the front, the dio will be an 'uphill' setting, with the bunker at the top and to the left, with the Sherman driving up the road just in front, and down to the right of the bunker. That is the basic premise.
Whadaya think?
I don't think I've ever seen pics of a late M4A1 with wading trunks. Keep in mind that these tanks were likely unloaded right onto the beach or Mulberry from an LST -- many never even got their tracks damp.
Sounds like a nice dio idea. You might want the bunker to look like Allied troops have moved in after driving the beach defenders out weeks before.
M-60-A3
Joined: June 14, 2003
KitMaker: 808 posts
Armorama: 479 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 06:06 AM UTC
Hello Everybody,
If I might join in on this, I have a question. If you build the Italeri kit as is, will it be a "credible" M4A2? By changing the deck that would take care of a good bit of it (to my understanding). Now for the rear of the vehicle, since the wading trunk would be in place, would it tend to cover the inaccuracies of that part of the tank? If not, would the Tank Workshop kit that has the rear plates combined with changing the engine deck do the trick? I'm looking for a model without glaring mistakes.
Regards,
Joe
If I might join in on this, I have a question. If you build the Italeri kit as is, will it be a "credible" M4A2? By changing the deck that would take care of a good bit of it (to my understanding). Now for the rear of the vehicle, since the wading trunk would be in place, would it tend to cover the inaccuracies of that part of the tank? If not, would the Tank Workshop kit that has the rear plates combined with changing the engine deck do the trick? I'm looking for a model without glaring mistakes.
Regards,
Joe
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 07:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"....If you build the Italeri kit as is, will it be a "credible" M4A2?....."
M-60-A3 hit it on the head, "credible, with no glaring mistakes" is a good way to describe it.
Quoted Text
"...By changing the deck that would take care of a good bit of it....
True?
Quoted Text
"...since the wading trunk would be in place, would it tend to cover the inaccuracies of that part of the tank?..."
Also.......True?
I just recently saw a book that showed a great colour pic of a couple of shermans waiting to go ashore. To Hollowpoint's credit (don't worry Hollowpoint, I've got complete faith in ya!
), it showed both a cast hull Shermie and (what I thought was) an M4A2. The cast hull did NOT have trunks, and the A2 did.So....if someone would be so KIND, as to point out the major visual difference's, this Shermanoholic 'FNG' would be very grateful for the 'handholding' :-) :-) #:-)
Tread.
Also....just so I don't get 'heat' for someone thinking I'm not paying attention. It seems that most of the items already mentioned are "late" war mods....how much later in the war can you get than 1945?........?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 09:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm not a rivet counter nor a Sherman expert. I have the Tank Workshop M4A2 conversion set (0024). The instructions are rather vague but sould be adequate for assembly. The set includes the 2-piece engine deck (not necessary with the Italeri USMC M4A2 kit), a new upper and lower rear hull piece, and a pair of mufflers and exhaust deflector.Hello Everybody,
If I might join in on this, I have a question. If you build the Italeri kit as is, will it be a "credible" M4A2? By changing the deck that would take care of a good bit of it (to my understanding). Now for the rear of the vehicle, since the wading trunk would be in place, would it tend to cover the inaccuracies of that part of the tank? If not, would the Tank Workshop kit that has the rear plates combined with changing the engine deck do the trick? I'm looking for a model without glaring mistakes.
Regards,
Joe
If you are using the wading trunks, I think you should be able to fake it by just changing the angle of the upper rear hull plate by the stated 10°.
M-60-A3
Joined: June 14, 2003
KitMaker: 808 posts
Armorama: 479 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 09:32 AM UTC
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that I would be too concerned about the 10 degree difference in the angle of the rear plate. It can't be that noticible, can it?
Regards,
Joe
Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that I would be too concerned about the 10 degree difference in the angle of the rear plate. It can't be that noticible, can it?
Regards,
Joe
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 09:51 AM UTC
Hey fellas,
Just sat down and had lunch...watched Band of Brothers ' Day of Days' episode. (Man, I can't watch it without getting.......you know) Anyway. They have two cast hull Sherman's sporting wading trunks featured in that episode.
So, maybe they just 'winged it' with the early Sherm?
Curious.
Tread.
Just sat down and had lunch...watched Band of Brothers ' Day of Days' episode. (Man, I can't watch it without getting.......you know) Anyway. They have two cast hull Sherman's sporting wading trunks featured in that episode.
So, maybe they just 'winged it' with the early Sherm?
Curious.
Tread.
Savage
Joined: June 04, 2003
KitMaker: 1,405 posts
Armorama: 656 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 10:28 AM UTC
Dave
Have a look here for a Review by Peter Brown, it contains the info you are looking for:
http://pmms.webace.com.au/reviews/vehicles/italeri/it6389.htm
Tread, to my knowledge the only M4A1 with wading trunks was the British Sherman IIs. Read through this thread for more info:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104/message/2701
Also, to my knowledge, putting a 47 Degree or Late M4A2 at any D-day landing will be pushing it. Most of these vehicles were ear-marked for the Russians, very few of these were used by either the US Army or British (Commonwealth) forces.
As far as I recall except for the REME only the USMC liked the M4A2 in general, mainly because of their diesel engines.
Have a look here for a Review by Peter Brown, it contains the info you are looking for:
http://pmms.webace.com.au/reviews/vehicles/italeri/it6389.htm
Tread, to my knowledge the only M4A1 with wading trunks was the British Sherman IIs. Read through this thread for more info:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104/message/2701
Also, to my knowledge, putting a 47 Degree or Late M4A2 at any D-day landing will be pushing it. Most of these vehicles were ear-marked for the Russians, very few of these were used by either the US Army or British (Commonwealth) forces.
As far as I recall except for the REME only the USMC liked the M4A2 in general, mainly because of their diesel engines.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 22, 2004 - 10:56 AM UTC
Many thx for both links Savage....so, I guess an M4A3E2 'Jumbo' is out of the question then, huh?
Tread.
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