_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Primering and pre shading
tanknick22
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:28 PM UTC
I just dont get it whats the purpose of spraying a primer coat on plastic to me it seems like a waste of time and as for the reason of pre shading I dont get that either on real tank you dont see that so whats the point for all the unnecessary work?
ArtyG37B
Visit this Community
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: August 13, 2009
KitMaker: 420 posts
Armorama: 416 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:10 AM UTC
I get doing a primer coat. with all the multi media models out there ( I mean plastic, PE and resin)primer helps to blend it all together. Also it helps the base coat stick to the metal and resin. Preshading? i don't get either. I tried it once, didn't like it. I'll stick to pin washes to bring out detail.
tankmodeler
#417
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:11 AM UTC
There are those who feel that a coat of primer does two things (and not all people submit to both uses):

1) It provided a well adhered surface for paint to bond to. Styrene and resin are notoriously bad surfaces for paints to bond to, primer is thought to provide (and good primers do) a better paint surface as it is designed to bond to the substrate and then the colour will bond better to the primer. They also even out the model colour prior to paint resulting in a more even finish.

2) Those who chose a bold coloured primer, be it black, white or the final vehicle colour, also use it as part of the final colour process. In the case of black primers, you get an automatic darkening effect near the edges as you do not completely cover the primer with the top coat. This is frequently part of a nuanced and multi-shade painting process that aims to artistically reproduce not the actual painting of a vehicle, but the look of a painted vehicle in certain light conditions.

Pre-shading is part of the nuanced multi-shade process I spoke of above. Again, the aim is, through applications of various shades of the base colour, to achieve the look of a vehicle in natural light. To capture both the physical fading and colour variation in the real paint as well as the variations seen in perceived colour with the naked eye in real life. Again, the idea is that one is trying to capture, through the use of various paints, the variations in colour and wear that the human eye sees when looking at an object that may actually be, provably, only one colour.

It is an artistic attempt to capture reality. Similar in intent to impressionists trying to capture the a subject using quite garish colours sometimes, when the actual object actually has none of those colours in it.

Personally, it's not for me. I will paint a base colour then add weathering to achieve the look I like. I see the pre-shaded/modulated paint schemes as too cartoonish and, to my eye, only looks realistic from one angle of viewing. Something that looks great in photos but less so, to me, in real life.

But there are a great many who subscribe to this more artistic representation of models.

Who am I to argue with what other people like in a hobby. I just know it's not for me.

Paul
alewar
Visit this Community
Canelones, Uruguay
Joined: December 27, 2006
KitMaker: 773 posts
Armorama: 765 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:19 AM UTC
Hi Nick

The primer effects its to produce a better "grip" for the paint coat. With some paints (Ammo, AK, Vallejo acrylics) this its a must.
With others, like Tamiya and almost enamels ones,maybe you can save the time if you wash properly the plastic parts.

The pre-shading coat help to "show" some dark areas under the main color to get some effect of lights reflex or not . Also, this coat can be omitted. Usually its more easy to paint the entire model with a black coat than doing each line of each panel.

I usually use a black spray (Krylon) as "primer" and "preshading".

HTW
Regards
Alvaro
Removed by original poster on 05/13/19 - 22:14:01 (GMT).
Vicious
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 03:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

....1) It provided a well adhered surface for paint to bond to. Styrene and resin are notoriously bad surfaces for paints to bond to, primer is thought to provide (and good primers do) a better paint surface as it is designed to bond to the substrate and then the colour will bond better to the primer. They also even out the model colour prior to paint resulting in a more even finish.

2) Those who chose a bold coloured primer, be it black, white or the final vehicle colour, also use it as part of the final colour process. In the case of black primers, you get an automatic darkening effect near the edges as you do not completely cover the primer with the top coat. This is frequently part of a nuanced and multi-shade painting process that aims to artistically reproduce not the actual painting of a vehicle, but the look of a painted vehicle in certain light conditions.

Pre-shading is part of the nuanced multi-shade process I spoke of above. Again, the aim is, through applications of various shades of the base colour, to achieve the look of a vehicle in natural light. To capture both the physical fading and colour variation in the real paint as well as the variations seen in perceived colour with the naked eye in real life. Again, the idea is that one is trying to capture, through the use of various paints, the variations in colour and wear that the human eye sees when looking at an object that may actually be, provably, only one colour.

It is an artistic attempt to capture reality. Similar in intent to impressionists trying to capture the a subject using quite garish colours sometimes, when the actual object actually has none of those colours in it.

Personally, it's not for me. I will paint a base colour then add weathering to achieve the look I like. I see the pre-shaded/modulated paint schemes as too cartoonish and, to my eye, only looks realistic from one angle of viewing. Something that looks great in photos but less so, to me, in real life.

But there are a great many who subscribe to this more artistic representation of models.
.....



I believe that Paul's explanation is perfect, even the type of paint used can lead to the use or not of the primer, usually Laquer and Enamel they dont really need primer because they are very resistant and grip a lot better then Acrylics especially those water based who are much more 'weak and without primer does not grip as they should and much more' easily scratch, certain special paints like AlcadII have absolutely need of primer.

The primer is also important for the finish, ok in AFV less being usually with rather rough surfaces but much more important in planes, a good primer covers small scratches etc ... and highlights others so you can take action before the color , a good primer should be sandeable and here most of Acrylic primer have a bit 'of problems and are not as' strong as the Enamel and Lacquer

For preshading it is just a matter of taste but often to represent reality you have to overdo especially if scale.


Scarred
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 01:56 PM UTC
Sadly a lot of people are going overboard with pre-shading. It seems that some believe that if it's a gap, it's as deep as the grand canyon and needs to be in deep shadow. Areas that I believe need to be pre-shaded are those that are in naturally deep shadow such as the exhaust areas of lets say a M1 Abrams or M60, up under skirts or the area under reactive armor because light can't get to those areas or they are black and stained from exhaust. As for priming, most of the reasons for it have already mentioned. Fill small imperfections, giving a surface for different paints to adhere to, early acrylics didn't stick well to certain materials or certain enamels stuck better to metal than plastic. Also if you have built a kit that is multimedia, as most are now-a-days, they will have dark parts and light parts, i.e. you could build a model molded in dark green, add brass photo etch and then you have dark and light contrasts that can show through your paint. Or you could have used putty that contrasts with the plastic and all that can affect how your base coat looks just like pre-shading. So priming gives you a blank canvas of even color on which to build your paint job.
Namabiiru
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
Visit this Community
Rhode Island, United States
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 05:11 PM UTC
I work exclusively with acrylics (except for oil washes and filters) so primer is pretty much a must-do. I've tried acrylic-polyurethane primers and found them wanting. Now I use almost exclusively automotive primer from a rattle can. The dark grey gives me a nice neutral base color over which I can get good coverage with acrylics--although through trial and mostly error I recently discovered that I'm better going with Mr White Surfacer if my base color is going to ultimately be white, like a UN vehicle.

Pre-shading I sometimes do and sometimes not. I find that it really does help bring depth and that it's hard to get the finished product to look like anything but a plastic model without it. The great thing about pre-shading is that by applying light coats of your final color over a pre-shade it's really easy to get exactly the effect you want. If the pre-shade is too stark you just keep adding paint until it's where you want it.

Armorsmith
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Friday, February 17, 2017 - 05:37 PM UTC
I pre/post shade single color i.e. olive drab, sand, schemes as a means to bring tonal variety and therefore greater visual interest to what is otherwise a monotone color scheme. Granted it's not "realistic" but more artistic. Used in combination with other weathering techniques it produces different tones and shades that to me make the subject look more interesting. The key is to apply the color coat in very thin layers to allow you to better control the degree of coverage leaving more/less of the preshade to show through.
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 03:39 AM UTC
The reality is that unless your metal primer has zinc or chromium compounds in it, and you plastic primer has a high organic solvent fraction, you aren't priming anything but are simply adding another coat of paint.

The biggest cause of poor paint adhesion is an uncleaned base. If you want to improve adhesion scrub your model with a detergent solution and rinse well immediately before painting. A TSP solution would be better but it would need compatibility testing with all the plastic, metals, and adhesives, probably not worth it.

If want to give a uniform base color, just add a "primer" coat of your base color, or something close that covers well.

KL
BBD468
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: March 08, 2010
KitMaker: 2,465 posts
Armorama: 2,383 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 04:09 AM UTC
I prime ALL my models and on my armor and aircraft i almost ALWAYS Preshade. Theres more than One way to skin a cat as they say. Its all about personal preference and how you wish your model to look in the end. Am i Happy with it. I am not after 100 realism, this is a Hobby and i use "artist interpretation" on my project...its kind of My Spin on a real Tank. Preshade & Primer.. Some folks "Dont get it" or even poopoo it! I say build what ya want, how ya want as long as you enjoy.

BBD468
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: March 08, 2010
KitMaker: 2,465 posts
Armorama: 2,383 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 04:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I pre/post shade single color i.e. olive drab, sand, schemes as a means to bring tonal variety and therefore greater visual interest to what is otherwise a monotone color scheme. Granted it's not "realistic" but more artistic. Used in combination with other weathering techniques it produces different tones and shades that to me make the subject look more interesting. The key is to apply the color coat in very thin layers to allow you to better control the degree of coverage leaving more/less of the preshade to show through.



Well said sir!
 _GOTOTOP