The panther design lets a crew grease all the major lubrication points from a central location. There are spaghetti like bundles of grease pipes leading from central lubrication stations in the fighting compartment to where the greases are needed.
My question is how standardized are the routing of these grease pipes? Is it something where a pipe fitter would route each pipe roughly according to some scheme, leaving lots of room for individual differences, or are they almost identical in each tank?
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Panther lubrication pipes
Chuck4
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 03:09 AM UTC
maximus8425
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 03:23 AM UTC
I imagine there would be a set pipe run as laid down in a vehicles blueprint that would be strictly adhered to. Pipes may have been pre manufactured to a set length/shape elsewhere for fitting at a later date during construction. Not forgetting that fighting compartments and engine/transmission bays are cluttered places and these pipes would have to take into account the placement of other equipment/ammunition racks and components. Also having witnessed German AFV engineering first hand they don't do anything roughly now so I wouldn't think they did then.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 03:27 AM UTC
Basic mass manufacturing principles say that items like these would be pre-manufactured and delivered to the assembly line for installation. Made in sections or single pieces as assembly requirements dictates. No "free hand plumbing" since that would only cause problems ...
/ Robin
/ Robin
Scarred
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 06:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Basic mass manufacturing principles say that items like these would be pre-manufactured and delivered to the assembly line for installation. Made in sections or single pieces as assembly requirements dictates. No "free hand plumbing" since that would only cause problems ...
/ Robin
One off production is expensive and slow. Design and prototyping will point out any issues with the layouts of pipes and wires and correct them. Since the object is to get these tanks to the fight as quickly as possible one company will do the plumbing, another wiring, another engines, yet another the gun and then they'll ship them to the final assembly point where everything is put together. At least that is how modern mass production is done.
Chuck4
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 07:18 AM UTC
But are there photos of the grease tube bundles under the greasing nipples from two different tanks to show whether they these are in fact highly standardized or have considerable individual differences between tanks?
The reason I ask is I want to know whether I should laboriously shape thin solders to the exact contours of the pipes I see in the one reference photo I have, or I have some leeway on account of every thank being different in this area.
The reason I ask is I want to know whether I should laboriously shape thin solders to the exact contours of the pipes I see in the one reference photo I have, or I have some leeway on account of every thank being different in this area.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 08:14 AM UTC
I would suggest keeping in mind that German WWII tank production - and specifically of the Panther - was not wholly like the current extremely standardized processes we envision modern automotive and heavy machine manufacturing follow. There were only several thousand panthers built between early 1943 and mid 1945, and there was a fair amount of detail changing going on throughout that production period. German tank production was extremely labor-intensive and full of on-site custom fitting and such.
Also keep in mind that you are talking about grease lines - not hard hi-pressure hydraulic lines. Those grease lines could well have been made of softer metal tubing bent to fit the detail-geometry of their paths from fighting-compartment to final fittings. I could easily see them being pretty much "semi-custom" - following a general path but not using a specific pre-formed part. This is how people plumb houses and such with copper tubing for water and propane to this day - and how house electricians wire buildings and put together conduit systems. Key points in runs might use a standard fitting or shape - other parts could be "free-hand plumbing". In addition, using external suppliers of specialized pre-formed parts would simply have created increased vulnerability for tank production - so, engines, guns, trannies, radios, optics.... YES - made elsewhere and sent to assembly plant for installation. Grease plumbing? Maybe "local". An in-house shop in the plant could easily make any desired bent-tubing run, I would bet. It would be consistent with much that the Germans did for weapon manufacture. Otherwise... One Allied bomb knocking out a rail car full of small specialized tubing parts could have stopped Panther construction in its "tracks"! (No pun not intended! )
Just my thoughts and opinion!
Bob
Also keep in mind that you are talking about grease lines - not hard hi-pressure hydraulic lines. Those grease lines could well have been made of softer metal tubing bent to fit the detail-geometry of their paths from fighting-compartment to final fittings. I could easily see them being pretty much "semi-custom" - following a general path but not using a specific pre-formed part. This is how people plumb houses and such with copper tubing for water and propane to this day - and how house electricians wire buildings and put together conduit systems. Key points in runs might use a standard fitting or shape - other parts could be "free-hand plumbing". In addition, using external suppliers of specialized pre-formed parts would simply have created increased vulnerability for tank production - so, engines, guns, trannies, radios, optics.... YES - made elsewhere and sent to assembly plant for installation. Grease plumbing? Maybe "local". An in-house shop in the plant could easily make any desired bent-tubing run, I would bet. It would be consistent with much that the Germans did for weapon manufacture. Otherwise... One Allied bomb knocking out a rail car full of small specialized tubing parts could have stopped Panther construction in its "tracks"! (No pun not intended! )
Just my thoughts and opinion!
Bob
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Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 09:20 AM UTC
There may be different layouts between the A,D and G variants but I'll bet you that the lube lines in the Ausf A were 99% the same thru the production run. The Panther was over engineered where the T-34 was pretty much a slapdash assemblage of parts. That's one reason there were so many t-34s to Panthers. Germany is and has always been notorious for its engineering excellence and attention to detail when it comes to manufacturing and Joe Blow, or Hans Schmidt, building the tank can't make what amounts to an engineering change without authorization from an engineer. Moving one pipe because it don't fit right in the original position could cause problems with the fit of something else later in production. If you have a picture of the layout of the plumbing, I'd use that because unless you have the technical drawings a photo is the only example you have of the proper layout.