Just been reading some discussions over on Tiger tracks facebook page about the Porsche turret or as they say first production turret not being labeled as a Porsche turret no more.
Not sure what to make of it.
So both turret designs were made by Krupp or Henschel?
Hosted by Darren Baker
I still say it's a Porsche turret
PanzerKarl
England - North West, United Kingdom
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 01:27 PM UTC
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 03:16 PM UTC
I believe the Porsche turret was built due to the conviction of the designing company that it was a winner. The design lost to the Henschel design and rather than waste them they were mated to production Tiger II hulls. As such I believe Porsche turreted Kingtiger is an accurate description of the vehicle.
Chuck4
United States
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 05:22 PM UTC
I don' t believe that is right. The tiger II project demanded a standardized turret design right from the beginning. Both Porsche and Herschel hull designs were to use the same turret designed by Krupp. The only difference is Porsche used electric traverse while Herschel used hydraulic traverse. As it turns out, the first Krupp designed turrets was difficult to fabricate, had a high reject rate, and offered inferior protection, so Krupp redesigned the turret. For some reason the early turrets were called Porsche and later called either series turret or henschel turret. Neither turret were designed by Porsche or Herschel, nor specifically intended for Porsche or henschel hull design.
Porsche hull design for the tiger ii is exactly the same as their design for tiger I,. Except for sloping plates and a larger turret ring. The main objection to the Porsche tiger I design remains, which is the gasoline electric drive would use too much of the scarce and strategic copper in its motor windings. So I suspect even Porsche didn't think highly of their own chances. A couple of early krupp turrets were fitted with electric traverse, but they were modified with hydraulic traverse before delivery.
Porsche hull design for the tiger ii is exactly the same as their design for tiger I,. Except for sloping plates and a larger turret ring. The main objection to the Porsche tiger I design remains, which is the gasoline electric drive would use too much of the scarce and strategic copper in its motor windings. So I suspect even Porsche didn't think highly of their own chances. A couple of early krupp turrets were fitted with electric traverse, but they were modified with hydraulic traverse before delivery.
Das_Abteilung
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 351 posts
Joined: August 31, 2010
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 351 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 06:49 PM UTC
I understood that 50 turrets were left over from the cancelled VK45.02 project and were put to use to cover delays in the Henschel-designed turret. That's why no more were built. I'm not claiming that to be gospel truth and I can't provide any evidence: just what I've long understood to be the case
In much the same way the first dozen Jagdtiger used Porsche-type suspension left over from the same project. Bovington has the only surviving one of those, missing a wheel.
In much the same way the first dozen Jagdtiger used Porsche-type suspension left over from the same project. Bovington has the only surviving one of those, missing a wheel.
Chuck4
United States
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 06:57 PM UTC
No, the first turrets were not specifically designed for the Porsche chassis. They were meant to be the standard turret for whichever chassis design wins the competition. That is why they fit on henschel chassis with no modifications required.
The reasons they were redesigned are:
1. The front plate offered inadaquate protection,
2. The front plate frequently cracked during fabrication as it was bent into shape, resulting in high anticipated reject rate.
3. The compound curves of the front plate and left side plates were time consuming to shape.
Also, I don't know if the Porsche suspension units on the two (2) jagdtiger were newly built or leftover. But AFAIK, no Porsche vk45.02 chassis were ever begun. However their running gear design was exactly identical to earlier Porsche design for tiger I. So they could have been left over from the Porsche tiger 1 or Ferdinand/elephant designs.
The reasons they were redesigned are:
1. The front plate offered inadaquate protection,
2. The front plate frequently cracked during fabrication as it was bent into shape, resulting in high anticipated reject rate.
3. The compound curves of the front plate and left side plates were time consuming to shape.
Also, I don't know if the Porsche suspension units on the two (2) jagdtiger were newly built or leftover. But AFAIK, no Porsche vk45.02 chassis were ever begun. However their running gear design was exactly identical to earlier Porsche design for tiger I. So they could have been left over from the Porsche tiger 1 or Ferdinand/elephant designs.
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:01 PM UTC
The other issue with the design was that it had the shot trap at the front.
RLlockie
United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 02:01 AM UTC
Neither Porsche or Henschel designed or built turrets. As with other German tank projects, the turrets were designed separately and the only involvement the chassis design firm had with it was where the two parts interfaced (turret ring and RBJ). Both turrets were designed by Krupp.
Source, as usual, is Jentz & Doyle. As is often the case, much of the history that we know turns out to be wrong as previous authors misinterpreted, speculated or guessed. Not that J&D are infallible but they are generally reliable as they use primary sources.
Source, as usual, is Jentz & Doyle. As is often the case, much of the history that we know turns out to be wrong as previous authors misinterpreted, speculated or guessed. Not that J&D are infallible but they are generally reliable as they use primary sources.