Howdy,

Any one got pics of the machine gun used by the French in Indochina on their scout cars? I have the Star decals for a 1/35 kit, but they don't provide much more than a general outline of the weapon used.

Brian Riedel

It is propably the Riebel mle.31, standard co-ax MG on french pre-war tanks and armoured cars and still used in the 40-50s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reibel_machine_gun

You can see this gun in the back of the half-track on this photo:
https://juleswings.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/delta-tanks.jpg

There is a webstore on Shapeways that have released two sets with various versions of this weapon:
https://www.shapeways.com/product/8LBHGZJRX/ets35010-reibel-machine-gun-4x-1-35-scale?optionId=59071663
https://www.shapeways.com/product/GUTAVUZR9/ets35009-reibel-machine-gun-6-types-2-of-each?optionId=41111182

Awesome! I'll look into them right now!

Brian Riedel

If you mean M3 Scout Car, it could still be either or both of the Brownings, 0.30 and 0.50. The 0.50 was certainly used on many vehicles in Indo China including M3. The 0.30 is less commonly seen, but France had many from US supplies in WW2 and being belt fed had firepower advantages over the Reibel - which was rate-limited to 1 drum per minute because of overheating.

Using the Reibel would have simplified ammunition with other 7.5mm infantry weapons. France dropped 0.30 infantry weapons quickly after WW2, even though that put infantry back to the bolt action MAS36 from the semi-auto Garand. Despite Free French forces sticking with the Chatellerault M1929 through WW2 in preference to the BAR, many BAR were later used in Indo China alongside the Chatellerault.

The Reibel and Chatellerault were essentially the same basic weapon, the former being adapted from the latter. Both designed - or more correctly adapted from the BAR design - by Col Reibel

0.50 cal and 0.30 cal were common for US vehicles. Here is a nice link posted earlier on on this forum:
http://jcr3.free.fr/cahier-journalier/pages/Albums/patrouilles/index.htm
those are pics of M3 in Indochina
Hope this helps

Hello
Notice that the scout cars shows in the link are from RICM units (same as USMC).

Thanks for all of the great responses.

This is the car I want to do. Can't seem to find any pics on the 'net.



Thanks,

Brian Riedel

Well that picture is definitely a Chatellerault without its top-mounted magazine: no question.

I've never seen one of those vehicle-mounted before, but they were certainly used by French infantry in Indo China so it's possible. In fact it had 2 holes through the lower central handguard, which might have facilitated mounting. I think these might have been for the fortress mount. A surprising main weapon choice as it had only a 25-round magazine.

Model-wise, Heller did one in their old weapon/accessory and French Combat Group sets. A bit soft and missing both triggers. There's a better one in the Tamiya French Infantry set.

Here's a twin MAC 31 mount on a French Army M2 half-track used for air base defense in Indochina :



from this walkaround :

http://www.primeportal.net/apc/david_lueck/french_m2_halftrack/index.php?Page=1

H.P.

Here are some links to the vehicle, and then you can make a guess about the MG as it is not visible on the photo.
http://legioncavalerie.free.fr/fr/1REC-INDO.htm


Johan Lexell, Star-Decals

No disrespect to Johann's artwork, but the drawing is confusing. And no, you can't tell from the photo as the barrels are too similar and the photo too indistinct.

A butt stock and rearward-angled pistol grip, as drawn, will be a Chatellerault. Reibel had no butt and a forward-curved pistol grip. The guns in the half track mount picture are incomplete, missing their trigger groups, pistol grips and the backs of the receivers: they've been partly stripped. The picture at this link shows what they should look like when complete, and apparently on the same mounting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reibel_machine_gun#/media/File:Mitrailleuse_mle_31.jpg

I think the electric cable in the picture may be for a barrel heater, making the picture an aircraft pintle gun. Reibel had a bad habit of freezing up at altitude, leading to jams at critical moments - like when The Bad Guys appeared and you needed to shoot them!

The artwork does appear to show a drum mag, which would not fit the Chatellerault. This had a top-mounted straight-sided forward-angled box mag.

Being unable to find any photos of any vehicle-mounted Chatelleraults, and there being other photos and evidence of vehicle-mounted Reibels in Indo China, my "most likely" vote goes to a Reibel as the weapon in the photo.

It looks like Shapeways is your only source.

Exellent photo btw, definatly a Reibel + what looks to be one more on the skate rail.

ICMs Panhard 178 kits also include an extra full Reibel machine gun + many drum mags intended for the interior, but the Shapeways solution is propably the best as you get several guns incase you want to portray the vehicle armed with more than one.

Hi Peter

Is it what you call a Chatellerault ?



In France, this weapon is not called "machine gun", it's a "fusil mitrailleur" (= automatic rifle) MAC 24/29 (a.k.a FM 24/29, which is the commonly used designation).

Here's a French Army (5e Régiment de Cuirassiers) jeep in Indochina, fitted with both a MAC 31 and a FM 24/29 :



Another FM 24/29 on a French Army half-track in Algeria :



Another jeep-mounted one in Algeria :



Both weapons were built by the Manufacture d'Armes de Chatellerault. AFAIK, Reibel is not an official designation...



H.P.

Wow! So much info to digest. Thanks for all of your participation (keep it coming).

Johan, thanks for all of your work and great decals! Love them.

Now I have to decide which gun I like better for my model.

Brian Riedel

Henri-Pierre is of course absolutely right about the designations and that both weapons were designed by the same person and made in the same place and that neither name is strictly accurate. But you'd be surprised by how commonly-used those names have become. I guess I fell into that same trap. None of my searches found any of the pictures he posted, but we've flushed out a lot of useful info for you. Of course you could follow his photo example and have one of each type! As your surname isn't all that different from Col Reibel's, you know you have to .......

I've got an order in at Shapeways for a couple of Riebels, might pick up the Tamiya French Infantry set for the Chatellerault. Why not? After some of the problems I'm having with the Eduard brass set, I'm past the point of caring too much about accuracy, as long as it looks good to me.

Brian Riedel

Another source for the FM 24/29 is the set #420 from Italeri :



This set also includes some MAT 49 submachine guns that can be used as well....

H.P.