Hi guys, I know this has been asked before but I haven't found a definitive answer yet. I am in the process of building Tamiya's SDKFZ 222 North Afrika and Das Afrika Korp SDKFZ 232 8 rad. Based on the kit instructions, both are supposed to sport the german desert color gelbraun/yellow-brown applied over a panzer-grey surface.
Long story short - what acrylic paints (preferably vallejo and/or tamiya) match this base coat? I've been getting mixed answers.
Tamiya recommends mixing 2 parts Dark Yellow and 1 part Desert Yellow
Vallejo Recommends Model air RAL 8020 (71117) or their DAK Primer (both of which look different)
I have read that there were also two camo scehmes in Afrika... both two tone camos. But these seem to be applied more on the panzers rather than the scout cars.
All help is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
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DAK sdkfz 232 and 222 base color?
kunjuro
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 08:55 AM UTC
AgentG
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 09:35 AM UTC
For the first tropen camo, May 41 to April '42, I use the following.
My RAL 8000 mix with Tamiya is 40% Dark Yellow, 40% Flat Earth and 20 % Yellow Green. I adjust this by eye to what I think looks best. If I go too green I add the brown color and sometimes add a drop or two of Orange. I perceive the color as a golden brown with a twinge of green.
I mix RAL 7008 60% Tamiya Khaki and 40% OD. To that I add some Yellow Green to taste.
Vallejo Model Color 70879 Green brown is spot on for RAL 8000. It can be airbrushed if thinned correctly with their thinner. Russian Uniform 70924 50/50 with Khaki 70988 is a good RAL 7008.
Model Color airbrushes well over a good primer. I do not thin it as much as I would thin Tamiya.
Vallejo RAL 8000 Green Brown Surface Primer is good out of the bottle. I see it as a bit too green, you might be ok with the color.
If we're talking the late tropen scheme, for RAL 8020 I mix Tamiya Buff 60%, Flat Flesh 30% and Deck Tan 10% I lighten this with white to suit.
RAL 7027 is a bit difficult to pin down. It seems that paint manufacturers render this color differently. Since it is referred to as Sandgrau, Sand Gray, I add a drop or two of Tamiya Khaki to the RAL 8020 mix. That lends itself to a slightly darker slightly greener mix. In my mind it looks like what I see on B/W photos as far as contrast between the two colors (not much) and hue based on the few color photos available.
G
My RAL 8000 mix with Tamiya is 40% Dark Yellow, 40% Flat Earth and 20 % Yellow Green. I adjust this by eye to what I think looks best. If I go too green I add the brown color and sometimes add a drop or two of Orange. I perceive the color as a golden brown with a twinge of green.
I mix RAL 7008 60% Tamiya Khaki and 40% OD. To that I add some Yellow Green to taste.
Vallejo Model Color 70879 Green brown is spot on for RAL 8000. It can be airbrushed if thinned correctly with their thinner. Russian Uniform 70924 50/50 with Khaki 70988 is a good RAL 7008.
Model Color airbrushes well over a good primer. I do not thin it as much as I would thin Tamiya.
Vallejo RAL 8000 Green Brown Surface Primer is good out of the bottle. I see it as a bit too green, you might be ok with the color.
If we're talking the late tropen scheme, for RAL 8020 I mix Tamiya Buff 60%, Flat Flesh 30% and Deck Tan 10% I lighten this with white to suit.
RAL 7027 is a bit difficult to pin down. It seems that paint manufacturers render this color differently. Since it is referred to as Sandgrau, Sand Gray, I add a drop or two of Tamiya Khaki to the RAL 8020 mix. That lends itself to a slightly darker slightly greener mix. In my mind it looks like what I see on B/W photos as far as contrast between the two colors (not much) and hue based on the few color photos available.
G
kunjuro
Philippines
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 10:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
For the first tropen camo, May 41 to April '42, I use the following.
My RAL 8000 mix with Tamiya is 40% Dark Yellow, 40% Flat Earth and 20 % Yellow Green. I adjust this by eye to what I think looks best. If I go too green I add the brown color and sometimes add a drop or two of Orange. I perceive the color as a golden brown with a twinge of green.
I mix RAL 7008 60% Tamiya Khaki and 40% OD. To that I add some Yellow Green to taste.
Vallejo Model Color 70879 Green brown is spot on for RAL 8000. It can be airbrushed if thinned correctly with their thinner. Russian Uniform 70924 50/50 with Khaki 70988 is a good RAL 7008.
Model Color airbrushes well over a good primer. I do not thin it as much as I would thin Tamiya.
Vallejo RAL 8000 Green Brown Surface Primer is good out of the bottle. I see it as a bit too green, you might be ok with the color.
If we're talking the late tropen scheme, for RAL 8020 I mix Tamiya Buff 60%, Flat Flesh 30% and Deck Tan 10% I lighten this with white to suit.
RAL 7027 is a bit difficult to pin down. It seems that paint manufacturers render this color differently. Since it is referred to as Sandgrau, Sand Gray, I add a drop or two of Tamiya Khaki to the RAL 8020 mix. That lends itself to a slightly darker slightly greener mix. In my mind it looks like what I see on B/W photos as far as contrast between the two colors (not much) and hue based on the few color photos available.
G
Thanks for the comprehensive answer I am considering getting a Tunisian Tiger and a Panzer III ausf N soon so these should prove handy.
Anyone else have their own preferred color/mix?
RLlockie
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 11:43 AM UTC
It would depend on when it arrived.
Tamiya's 232 is an early model (1. or 2. Serie as I recall) so if DAK had that model it most likely arrived in Dunkelgrau and was camouflaged quickly in theatre after arrival, as the Aufkl. units were deployed first. Some were camouflaged with mud, which obviously wore off easily; later paint was probably used.
Later versions would have been factory painted in the Tropen schemes prior to shipping but you will need to do some conversion work if you want a 3., 4. or 5. Series example (and I'm not sure how many versions were sent).
The Panzer Tracts book is probably the best guide to differences and production dates and mods and the Nuts & Bolts one has lots of photos as well. There was also a Museum Ordnance Special by Jentz, although it can be hard to find.
Tamiya's 232 is an early model (1. or 2. Serie as I recall) so if DAK had that model it most likely arrived in Dunkelgrau and was camouflaged quickly in theatre after arrival, as the Aufkl. units were deployed first. Some were camouflaged with mud, which obviously wore off easily; later paint was probably used.
Later versions would have been factory painted in the Tropen schemes prior to shipping but you will need to do some conversion work if you want a 3., 4. or 5. Series example (and I'm not sure how many versions were sent).
The Panzer Tracts book is probably the best guide to differences and production dates and mods and the Nuts & Bolts one has lots of photos as well. There was also a Museum Ordnance Special by Jentz, although it can be hard to find.
kunjuro
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 01:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It would depend on when it arrived.
Tamiya's 232 is an early model (1. or 2. Serie as I recall) so if DAK had that model it most likely arrived in Dunkelgrau and was camouflaged quickly in theatre after arrival, as the Aufkl. units were deployed first. Some were camouflaged with mud, which obviously wore off easily; later paint was probably used.
Later versions would have been factory painted in the Tropen schemes prior to shipping but you will need to do some conversion work if you want a 3., 4. or 5. Series example (and I'm not sure how many versions were sent).
The Panzer Tracts book is probably the best guide to differences and production dates and mods and the Nuts & Bolts one has lots of photos as well. There was also a Museum Ordnance Special by Jentz, although it can be hard to find.
Thanks for the info RLlockie. I'm actually trying to portray the vehicle in the boxart (dunkelgrau with a desert camo added on which matches your description of the first batch of 232s). Trying to find the right color that matches this:
EDIT: So does that mean I should probably be looking for a match for RAL 8000?
Anmoga
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 04:20 PM UTC
RLlockie
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Posted: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 10:53 PM UTC
That's what I'd be doing. By the time 8020 was being applied it wasn't over Dunkelgrau any more.
AgentG
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 05:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That's what I'd be doing. By the time 8020 was being applied it wasn't over Dunkelgrau any more.
Not necessarily. When the 10th Panzer Division deployed to Tunisia, It's Panzers were RAL 8020 with RAL 7027 patterns, but most of the support vehicles, including the 232's and 233's were still Dark Gray. You see evidence of hastily sprayed patterns of RAL 8020 over te Dark Gray in a lot of photos. A lot was lost in transit so you get a variety of vehicles and colors. The Restayn and Moeller book "10 Panzer Division Action in the East West and North Africa" provides scores of photos showing the mish mash.
G
RLlockie
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 01:32 PM UTC
I was referring to factory application. I doubt any early Serie 232s were sent to Tunisia so if he's not planning to convert the Tamiya kit to one of those, it's hardly relevant what field units were doing with newly arrived kit in Tunisia.
AgentG
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 08:08 PM UTC
Photographic evidence is entirely relevant to an accurate build. Or do you disagree with that as well?
G
G
RLlockie
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 11:22 PM UTC
I'm a strong believer in photographic evidence. I'm also willing to accept that some vehicles were shipped to Tunisia in grey and overpainted in theatre if not originally intended to be sent there if you have evidence of that. It's not particularly my period so if you can ID 8020 from 8000 or any other lighter colour than dark grey in a monochrome image, more power to you. My efforts at this have a pretty poor record.
However, unless there is evidence for some of them being of the same version as Tamiya's kit, rather than the later versions, I'm not sure how relevant that is here unless the original poster plans to convert it to a later type. I'd be happy to see evidence of an early one that survived that long but the ones I recall from that campaign have the later design of hull and turret. I'd also be delighted to see someone else do the conversion because I started one myself a few years ago.
I'm really not trying to argue the point - I may well be wrong and maybe 8020 was applied over Dunkelgrau in Tunisia. Maybe it was even done in factories in Germany despite official policy. Maybe some grey early 232s survived long enough to be repainted by units in Tunisia. I'm perfectly happy to believe all that with reliable evidence. Nobody else is obliged to do likewise.
However, unless there is evidence for some of them being of the same version as Tamiya's kit, rather than the later versions, I'm not sure how relevant that is here unless the original poster plans to convert it to a later type. I'd be happy to see evidence of an early one that survived that long but the ones I recall from that campaign have the later design of hull and turret. I'd also be delighted to see someone else do the conversion because I started one myself a few years ago.
I'm really not trying to argue the point - I may well be wrong and maybe 8020 was applied over Dunkelgrau in Tunisia. Maybe it was even done in factories in Germany despite official policy. Maybe some grey early 232s survived long enough to be repainted by units in Tunisia. I'm perfectly happy to believe all that with reliable evidence. Nobody else is obliged to do likewise.
srmalloy
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Posted: Thursday, April 06, 2017 - 11:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm a strong believer in photographic evidence. I'm also willing to accept that some vehicles were shipped to Tunisia in grey and overpainted in theatre if not originally intended to be sent there if you have evidence of that.
I don't know if you can really describe it as 'overpainted', but you can find pictures of at least one SdKfz 232 (8 rad) that was in the Dunkelgrau base color that had been camouflaged with an application of a mud slurry across the whole vehicle; there are pictures of the slurry being applied to the rear of the vehicle, and one at an off angle from the front showing the almost complete coverage of the slurry, including to the front standoff plate. If I remember correctly, the first time I encountered the latter picture, the text accompanying the picture was commenting on how field camouflage like this made it hard to determine the original color of the vehicle.