Correct M4A1 Sherman pistol port?
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 12:38 AM UTC
Hi all,
I'm hoping someone can help please. I have the Dragon and Eduard (Tasca/Asuka) Sherman M4/M4A1 kits, and I notice that both have some kind of mould seam line around the pistol port.
In photos I've seen of D-Day period Shermans, there doesn't appear to be any mould seam in that area, so does this need sanding down? Thanks!
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 12:54 AM UTC
PS: I hope you can see what I mean from the photos ...
Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 05, 2008
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 01:36 AM UTC
Hi Mike,
while some turrets did have some sort of mould seam in that area, it's probably best to sand it down.
This might help you as well:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/pistol_port/pistol_port.htmlPhilipp
United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 01:39 AM UTC
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 02:15 AM UTC
Thanks guys.
Well at least if I sand the seams down it looks like the area around the pistol port is not very even or uniform in texture so if it differs from the 'casting' texture it won't look odd!
United Kingdom
Joined: August 31, 2010
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 03:07 AM UTC
On the Sherman Minutia page there are a couple of shots of pistol ports with distinct "mould lines" around the port, although recessed rather than proud of the surface. Others have no visible sign.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/pistol_port/pistol_port.html.I suspect it varied according to the foundry and perhaps whether the turret was cast before the pistol port was deleted or after it was reinstated, as moulds or casting masters would have been altered and then altered back. I believe the turrets were mostly sand-cast from masters. It is feasible that some foundries might have cast the pistol port section separately and then incorporated it into the turret shell casting, perhaps because of limitations of their own casting methods. That would explain the join line, but would also have been a weakness in the shell.
Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 03:15 AM UTC
You make very good points indeed. Thank you for that. I guess the lack of uniformity is a characteristic Sherman idiosyncrasy, having been produced by so many component makers.
Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 09:13 AM UTC
The line is simply a remnant of the plywood insert used in the sand casting process. Early turrets had the port, it was deleted, then reinstated at the request of the crews.
If you are mass producing major cast steel parts you don't make a new master, you modify it.
G
Lasci la pistola. Porti le cannoli.
Michigan, United States
Joined: October 28, 2002
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Posted: Friday, April 21, 2017 - 05:57 PM UTC
I've wondered the same thing and come to the conclusion that it's not based on casting seams seen on actual turrets. Same thing like the lines that are on the bustle of the Asuka/Tasca T-23 turrets. I always sand them off and re-apply texture.
Roy Chow
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Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:00 AM UTC
So agentG and ericadeane, am I correct in understanding that the apparent seam lines in my original post as found on the Asuka and Dragon turrets ARE meant to be there and were part of the real tank's production process?
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:35 AM UTC
The sand moulds are made of several parts, assembled together before the steel is poured. The area around the port is one of these parts, so a line around it can be visible in the steel turret shell. However, it isn't always visible (depends on the care taken when fitting the sand parts together) and it can be a rough grainy ridge rather than a sharp line because the sand at the edges tends to crumble a little. Sometimes they also ground ridges down during the clean-up after the turret is first de-moulded - this is common on the ridge around the base of the bustle on real turrets.
I'd sand the area to get rid of the die-straight raised lines and possibly re-apply the lines with a little putty in a rougher-looking line, as Roy says.
Hope this helps!
"Glue, or Glue Not - there is no Dry-Fit" - Yoda (original script from Return of the Jedi...)
Michigan, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 02:07 AM UTC
No -- I get rid of them. If I find evidence of a sand mold casting seam, I have no issues adding them. I'm simply not convinced that the DML and Tasca designers' work is indicative of any actual turret.
Roy Chow
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barkingdigger
Associate Editor #013
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 02:48 AM UTC
Ah - sorry Roy if I misconstrued you! Given that the port area is clearly a separate part of the mould on real ones, what about the Tasca & DML turrets are you most concerned about? I personally find the Tasca port to be too sharp and clinical, while the real ones often look a bit puffy and crude.
"Glue, or Glue Not - there is no Dry-Fit" - Yoda (original script from Return of the Jedi...)
Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
No -- I get rid of them. If I find evidence of a sand mold casting seam, I have no issues adding them. I'm simply not convinced that the DML and Tasca designers' work is indicative of any actual turret.
I have no idea why you would say this. Simply perusing photos of real tanks clearly indicates seam lines in the bustle and an occasional seam line as the one being discussed.
They are remnants of the casting process.
G
Lasci la pistola. Porti le cannoli.
Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:28 AM UTC
G
Lasci la pistola. Porti le cannoli.
United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:45 AM UTC
Maybe because the mould lines from casting steel parts in a sand mould don't look much like the mould lines from casting plastic in a steel mould. No-one is saying that there are no mould lines on the real turrets; just that the seams on the plastic kit parts don't really resemble them, therefore removal is appropriate. You may then choose to add representations of the mould lines later, as many people do.
Or if you're happy with what the kit manufacturers provide, you can leave as is.
Michigan, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 09:33 AM UTC
Robert states my position correctly Wayne. I scour photos -- I love to do that -- and then match features I find. I know about the bustle seam. I just don't care for Asuka or DML's interpretation of that boxy seam around the pistol port. Your photo of the real thing enforces my thinking on that.
Roy Chow
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Warszawa, Poland
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 11:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I just don't care for Asuka or DML's interpretation of that boxy seam around the pistol port.
Those molding lines in model kits are not meant to represent any seams in the real tank. They are just a result of slide molding process used to add pistol port details to a vertical (well, almost...) side wall of the turret part. If they resemble the seam existing in some real tanks it is purely coincidental. The line in the model kits is supposed to be removed.
Pawel "Vodnik" Krupowicz
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Nevada, United States
Joined: December 21, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 09:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
I just don't care for Asuka or DML's interpretation of that boxy seam around the pistol port.
Those molding lines in model kits are not meant to represent any seams in the real tank. They are just a result of slide molding process used to add pistol port details to a vertical (well, almost...) side wall of the turret part. If they resemble the seam existing in some real tanks it is purely coincidental. The line in the model kits is supposed to be removed.
I cannot accept that either.
G
Lasci la pistola. Porti le cannoli.
United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 12:02 AM UTC
Such is your entitlement - it's a free country. You may do as you wish, as may the rest of us. Some people were just trying to be helpful. It's really not worth an argument, is it?
