I am working on a fire base for the AFV Club 8" Howitzer, and want to have sufficient ammunition. The 203mm Howitzer Rounds & Cases set has 203mm ammo and decals! But what's in the cases? Powder bags? I assume the rounds were just projectiles that required propellant, but maybe someone can come up with a photo or two? Frenchy?

The powder is stored in the metal tubes....

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The powder is stored in the metal tubes....

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Thanks, Gary, but which metal tubes? Are those the "cases" in that set?

I am working on a fire base for the AFV Club 8" Howitzer, and want to have sufficient ammunition. The 203mm Howitzer Rounds & Cases set has 203mm ammo and decals! But what's in the cases? Powder bags? I assume the rounds were just projectiles that required propellant, but maybe someone can come up with a photo or two? Frenchy?

What time frame are you modeling?

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What time frame are you modeling?

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Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.

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What time frame are you modeling?

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Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.

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What time frame are you modeling?

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Sorry, WW2, possibly around the time of Bastogne.

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OK, in WW II the cans ("cartridge storage cases" at the time) had a different closure mechanism than that set. Similar, but not the same. The green bag cases were 26-3/8 x 8-1/8 diameter. Green bag charges were 21 inches long and 6-1/2 in diameter. The white bag cases were 29-3/8 x 9-1/2 diameter. White bag charges were 24 inches long and 7-3/4 inches in diameter. I would measure the ammo set parts as I think it is a mixed 155mm and 8-inch set.

The charges looked like this:




Also, at that time palletization of projectiles was exceedingly rare. I have only seen it used between factories and larger ammunition supply points or depots. The problem was that field units had no way to handle something that heavy (a pallet of six 8-inch rounds weighed over 1,200 pounds). Projectiles were most frequently handled individually. Also, rather than the protective "grommet" over the driving bands older WW II rounds used a hoop of rope to act as a bumper.

The markings in that set are postwar, IIRC. WW II projectiles and cases should have a five character code, like P2EAB. After ~1955 it was changed to a four character code like D580. (I think they even got the postwar markings wrong.) Fin

ally, in WW II the ammunition would be marked "8H" or "8 HOW". I don't think 8-inch ammunition was ever marked "203".

KL

When you look at a powder charge, you look at the type and lot number. The lot number never changes over the years. The shipping tube might or might not. Same can be stated for the projo's.

I've watched many a bunch of kids simply roll the rounds right off the back of a truck. Pallets are simply broken on the truck bed.

Well, it looks like the sets I purchased are post-war, so I will have to reconsider the fire base.

But I thank you guys profusely for preventing me from making a YUGE mistake and using postwar stuff. I will have to think about making the gun towed instead. Thanks again, I really mean it. What a great place this is.

Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry

I am doing one in the Nam era.
And yes those AFV club rounds are for Nam and beyond.
Doing the M-115 are you? I did one many moons ago a great kit.
Can't wait to see what you do with it.
One thing is this if the AFV Club one I would say the small metal deals are for the 155 MM rounds, if not well not then.
Gino will know also.


Cheers




Jeff

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Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry

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Thanks, Harry, that might work!

Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.

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Actually might work for Korea. Shot a lot of Korean War ammo, and looks just the same as Vietnam.
Harry

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Thanks, Harry, that might work!

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Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.

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That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL

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Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.

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That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL

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A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary

A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary

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Actually the powder tubes from 44 were identical. As I said before, it's the lot numbers they go by.

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That's incorrect.

> Lot numbers are used to keep track of the manufacturing and performance of the ammunition. It can tell who made it and when. For a particular fire mission a weapon would want all of the components to be of a single lot - projectiles from same lot, powder from same lot, fuzes from same lot, primer from same lot. This minimizes ballistic variation and simplifies the calculation of firing data. It has nothing to do with logistics, which is what the AIC and DODAC do. Those numbers provide a simple method of identifying a type of ammunition.

A battery may want to draw each day's ammunition from the same lot they used yesterday. Once that has run out they go to another lot, recalculate the data, and run with that number. If a 155mm howitzer runs out of D544 ammunition, it no longer has anything to shoot.

Another distinction: In an ammo dump, there may be 500 green bag 155H powder charges with a particular lot number, 500 with a second, 250 with a third, 100 with a fourth and 23 with a fifth. All will work in the 155H. All 1,373 charges will have the same AIC/DODAC though, indicating exactly what they are but not who made them or when they were made.

> The WW II and postwar cans had different closure designs, as I said. This is a WW II can.

Note the J-notches cut into the rim.

This is a postwar can.



The mouth has three indented areas with J-notches in them, keeping the rim continuous.

KL

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A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary

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Gary, he is correct Lot numbers change

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A simple question. How many rounds have you shot thru an eight inch? I have a couple hundred under my belt, plus another hundred fifty or more out of a 175gun. Add to that, several thousand rounds thru various 155's and ,105's.
Gary

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Zero. Which I'm guessing is also the exact number of rounds you shot against the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge. So what? I've never been to the Moon either, but I know I can't breathe there.

Can you not accept that things might have been different a quarter century before you were in the service? The guy was asking about the suitability of the AFV Club ammo for a model set in 1944. It isn't suitable. The AFV Club set depicts postwar ammunition so it isn't right for the 1940's. Why do you keep insisting it's OK for WW II based on your experiences 25 years later? You are not helping the guy.

KL