Hi all,
I've seen many posts about converting the old ESCI (now Italeri or Revell Germany reissue) M60A1 kit into M60A3. I've read many saying that Tamiya M60A3 kit has an updated turret.
So what's unique about Tamiya M60A3 35140 turret? Can someone share any photos to show the difference? I think both ESCI and AFV Club's M60A1 and M60A3 kits share the same turret. So how is the Tamiya kit's turret different from those? Is it something you can correct with some epoxy putty and TLC?
Thanks.
James
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Unique about Tamiya M60A3 35140 turret?
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 07:13 AM UTC
Tankerman
Joined: June 14, 2006
KitMaker: 54 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 08:28 AM UTC
James, the "updated" A3 turret probably refers to Tamiya producing a better turret than that in their ancient M60A1 kit that dated from the mid 1970s (I bought my first one at the Fort Knox PX in 1976). That turret was simplified and lacked the large undercut at the center rear of the turret bottom that was there to allow the driver to enter or exit his station when the turret was traversed to the rear. You also had to mark and drill holes on the turret sides to fit the hand rails. I have built the Tamiya A3, ESCI and Academy m60's and didn't see a problem with any of them. The old Tamiya A1 turret is noticeably different.
HTH Laramie
HTH Laramie
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 09:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi all,
I've seen many posts about converting the old ESCI (now Italeri or Revell Germany reissue) M60A1 kit into M60A3. I've read many saying that Tamiya M60A3 kit has an updated turret.
So what's unique about Tamiya M60A3 35140 turret? Can someone share any photos to show the difference? I think both ESCI and AFV Club's M60A1 and M60A3 kits share the same turret. So how is the Tamiya kit's turret different from those? Is it something you can correct with some epoxy putty and TLC?
Thanks.
James
All the available M60A1 kits represent real versions of the M60A1 turret casting at some point in the history of the vehicle. The original 1970 Tamiya M60A1 was a prototype turret but the underside was wrong in lacking the cut out for the poor driver's head(not that it made any difference if you were tall enough
The later Tamiya M60A3 kit had a totally new updated turret molding with casting texture and some of the casting numbers. The Esci/Italeri kit has a similar turret though there are some detail differences however both are accurate representing real life variations on the turret casting.
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 09:30 AM UTC
Thanks Laramie and Stephen for the info. I am still a bit puzzled however. The reason for asking was I saw this post from 10 years ago:
...and the cheek armor to the lower right and left of the mantlet was also beefed up. The final casting batch eliminated the undercut at the turret sides completely (Tamiya's revised turret depicts this version). Older turrets were not modified, as the Army preferred to spend money on new Abrams tanks rather than fully upgrade the M60 series.
...I wasn't aware of it until the IPMS Quarterly ran a photo article about fifteen years ago with side by side pictures of tanks in a storage depot. If you aren't looking for the contour change, it's easy to miss--I've spoken with tankers who served on M60A3's who never noticed (the Army did not publicize the improvement, as most older tanks were not going to receive it--those crews were SOL). If you compare the Tamiya and Italeri turrets, you'll notice it right away. No information on exactly when the change ocurred, or how many tanks were part of the program.
The same late-style turret shell is included in both Tamiya kits (Tamiya's original M60A1 turret from 1970 depicted the earliest turret casting with the severe undercut at the turret sides, but the angles on the turret were wrong, throwing the whole shape off--fortunately, that tooling was abandoned in the 1980's). If you use the current Tamiya kit but want to depict an earlier vehicle, a little judicious filing will restore the undercut. https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/98188&page=1
It sounds like Tamiya kit does not have the undercut like ESCI/Italeri kits do. How so? What does this look like?
...and the cheek armor to the lower right and left of the mantlet was also beefed up. The final casting batch eliminated the undercut at the turret sides completely (Tamiya's revised turret depicts this version). Older turrets were not modified, as the Army preferred to spend money on new Abrams tanks rather than fully upgrade the M60 series.
...I wasn't aware of it until the IPMS Quarterly ran a photo article about fifteen years ago with side by side pictures of tanks in a storage depot. If you aren't looking for the contour change, it's easy to miss--I've spoken with tankers who served on M60A3's who never noticed (the Army did not publicize the improvement, as most older tanks were not going to receive it--those crews were SOL). If you compare the Tamiya and Italeri turrets, you'll notice it right away. No information on exactly when the change ocurred, or how many tanks were part of the program.
The same late-style turret shell is included in both Tamiya kits (Tamiya's original M60A1 turret from 1970 depicted the earliest turret casting with the severe undercut at the turret sides, but the angles on the turret were wrong, throwing the whole shape off--fortunately, that tooling was abandoned in the 1980's). If you use the current Tamiya kit but want to depict an earlier vehicle, a little judicious filing will restore the undercut. https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/98188&page=1
It sounds like Tamiya kit does not have the undercut like ESCI/Italeri kits do. How so? What does this look like?
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 11:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Laramie and Stephen for the info. I am still a bit puzzled however. The reason for asking was I saw this post from 10 years ago:
...and the cheek armor to the lower right and left of the mantlet was also beefed up. The final casting batch eliminated the undercut at the turret sides completely (Tamiya's revised turret depicts this version). Older turrets were not modified, as the Army preferred to spend money on new Abrams tanks rather than fully upgrade the M60 series.
...I wasn't aware of it until the IPMS Quarterly ran a photo article about fifteen years ago with side by side pictures of tanks in a storage depot. If you aren't looking for the contour change, it's easy to miss--I've spoken with tankers who served on M60A3's who never noticed (the Army did not publicize the improvement, as most older tanks were not going to receive it--those crews were SOL). If you compare the Tamiya and Italeri turrets, you'll notice it right away. No information on exactly when the change ocurred, or how many tanks were part of the program.
The same late-style turret shell is included in both Tamiya kits (Tamiya's original M60A1 turret from 1970 depicted the earliest turret casting with the severe undercut at the turret sides, but the angles on the turret were wrong, throwing the whole shape off--fortunately, that tooling was abandoned in the 1980's). If you use the current Tamiya kit but want to depict an earlier vehicle, a little judicious filing will restore the undercut. https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/98188&page=1
It sounds like Tamiya kit does not have the undercut like ESCI/Italeri kits do. How so? What does this look like?
Best to ignore that old post they were shooting all over the place but not hitting the target.
None of the kit turrets quite represent the lipless final casting because a model can't accurately show how the edge goes all the way down to the turret ring. The way the kits are molded they all have some undercut.
Look at a picture of an M60A1 turret side and look at where it meets the hull turret ring. They are talking about the flared lip there.
The last turret casting had no lip and it was flat all the way down. A tiny handful of turrets had a faired in, welded on piece covering the lip (it was hollow on the inside and you really had to be looking for it.) They totally miss that in the discussion.
Look at any picture of an M60A1 turret and trim and file that lower edge how you want. The way the turrets were cast they differed so slightly as that was the join . I built one of my tanks roughing it up as much as possible and another with it totally smooth. Things you would see from tank to tank. But none of the kits have it totally flat enough for the final casting. So some filing has to be done for that.
There are variations all over based on when and by whom the turret was manufactured and then how and if the tank was re-manufactured as an M60A3. The same goes for the fillets on the chin beside the bottom of the gun mantle. Choose an example and do it because there are variations and going over it all here would be like going over all the casting differences on M4 Sherman turrets in one post when there are whole websites going over it.
JSSVIII
Joined: March 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,169 posts
Armorama: 1,067 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 05:31 PM UTC
Thanks for clearing that up Stephen, I had read that same article also, You explained it very well.
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 07:49 PM UTC
Thanks a lot Stephen. Clears things certainly.
Happy 4th!
James
Happy 4th!
James
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 08:50 PM UTC
There is an article on Missing-Lynx that compares the three kits extant before AFV Club's. The turret base is not that different between them.
The M60A1 turrets were wider than the race ring near the bottom and had a re-entant shape:
The casting was modified for later production tanks like the new M60A3s. (M60A1s upgraded to M60A3s used the tank's existing turrets.) The new shape brought the contour straight down from the widest point in a cylinder:
The obviously welded-on pieces immediately below the gun mount were not armor, just sheet metal, and were added early on to provide a better mounting surface for the dust cover.
KL
The M60A1 turrets were wider than the race ring near the bottom and had a re-entant shape:
The casting was modified for later production tanks like the new M60A3s. (M60A1s upgraded to M60A3s used the tank's existing turrets.) The new shape brought the contour straight down from the widest point in a cylinder:
The obviously welded-on pieces immediately below the gun mount were not armor, just sheet metal, and were added early on to provide a better mounting surface for the dust cover.
KL
JSSVIII
Joined: March 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,169 posts
Armorama: 1,067 posts
Posted: Monday, July 03, 2017 - 09:21 PM UTC
Thanks for that also Kurt, it is responses like yours and Stephen's that make these forums so helpful. Doing research is always important, but the selflessness to save other people valuable time with input like this that comes from your previous experience on the subject is truly priceless to people like me.
Thank you fellows very much for all your help!
Thank you fellows very much for all your help!
Petition2God
Joined: February 06, 2002
KitMaker: 1,526 posts
Armorama: 1,294 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 - 02:29 AM UTC
Kurt,
Those photos are exactly what I wanted to see! Thank you so much!
James
Those photos are exactly what I wanted to see! Thank you so much!
James
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