I was just wondering if it mattered what type of surface one would use for hairspray chipping...what's best surface gloss satin or matte if it even matters

It doesn't really matter as long as you seal the base layer of paint and let that harden before starting the hairspray chipping. If you don't seal it, you run the risk of removing the lower layer of paint too.

I haven't had an issue with sealing the base coat. I have had a problem with trying to get the technique to work with Tamiya paints as the top coat. They're so tough that within minutes of applications it's very difficult to chip off.

I think I'll stick with the salt method.

with vallejo base paints and vallejo chipping medium it didnt matter.

That's funny, because Tamiya is the only paint I've tried it with so far and have had no issues.

What thinner are you both using with the Tamiya?

I've tried chipping with Tamiya thinned with their lacquer thinner and it was very hard to remove. Think I read in one of Mike Rinaldi's books that he thinned with water for chipping so maybe I'll try that, or the X20A acrylic thinner.

Heck I tried the HS method with tamiya base coat sealed with future dried, then hair spray and then tamiya over that then the tamiya chipping coat came off in huge chunks really didnt like it at all

I lay down a base layer with Tamiya acrylic paints thinned with lacquer thinner. Once it has had a day to dry, I apply two layers of hair spray. I let it dry for a few minutes then put my paint layer on, Tamiya acrylic thinned with their ACRYLIC thinner at about 60%-40% thinner to paint. After cleaning my airbrush I attack the paint with wet brushes

No varnishes were needed. One tip is to wet the surface you want to chip with water and let it sit for a minute or two. This makes things easier.

I thin mine with 91% isopropyl. I have a bottle of X20 but have never opened it.

I think you're doing it wrong if you use lacquer thinner. Use water because it will eat away the hairspray underneath, and take a portion of the top layer with it.

Matte paint is the preferred product. The grit and texture help to create finer chips. The glossier the surface, the less grip and larger flakes ensues.

There's no need to seal the base coat. If you harm the base coat using HS, then you're doing it wrong. In fact, it's designed to be a delicate chipping process. Properly primed model with base coat sprayed is fine. Re. Future just makes things worse, see comment on gloss surface above.

When using Tamiya paints, the stronger the thinner, the stronger the bond. And the tougher it is for the water to work itself down to the HS layer, (which is how the process works, you're dissolving the HS, not the paint). Therefore Tamiya thinned with water will give the most controllable results because of the longer cure time and weaker adhesion. The opacity of the top coat is the most important factor to how the paint will chip, regardless of brand or thinner, so keep that in mind.

Yes, it takes practice to get it correct because of the multiple variables involved, but the results are better than any other processes regarding scale and realism of the effects you can achieve. If it's a goal for your project, then it's worth it to give it a proper go.

That said, I have been using the new Mission Models (MMP) urethane acrylics for the last few months with superior results to Tamiya. The finer grade pigments in the paints allows for even better results. Plus, working with the latex and vinyl acrylic brands is more difficult due to how those chemicals dry as a film (or a sheet). The flakes are different, often larger and out of scale compared o the Tamiya and MMP paints, and have a smaller working window due to how they cure (i.e. harder to control and get the results you're after).

Those of you that try it once, regardless of paints, etc. and have poor results, and then give it up...you need to practice this technique. As said above, the HS Technique has more than one variable involved, and therefore it requires a modeler to work within the parameters of your product setup beforehand to learn how to get the right results.

Hope this info helps.

Michael
RSP

Great reply, Mike.

One thing I only learned recently (and had confirmed on this thread) is that the time period between spraying the top colour over the chipping medium (HS or other) and the start of the removal process is minutes. As I seldom have time to do much more than spray a colour, I had been spraying the medium, letting it sit for days/weeks, spraying the top coat, letting it sit for days/weeks and then trying to remove it with absolutely no success.

I've looked at a couple of product instructions and a few videos and this point was never mentioned (on at least the ones I saw) and isn't emphasised in other places. But the timing is key.

Do you have a better feel for how long you can leave the HS or the top coat before the chipping isn't going to work well?

Paul

with hair spray or the vallejo medium, the time you let it sit is minutes. and the top coat dry time is minutes also. At least it has worked well for me.

The vallejo medium has been much easier for me to control in the amounts of top coat paint coming off.

I only use Tamiya and haven't had any probs apart from when I didn't seal the base coat properly as others say.

Biggest ? with hairspray variables is that not all formulas are the same at all. Which is why my wife has over five brands at any time.

Hi guys, for me time hasn't been that critical of a factor. While it is definitely a variable, it hasn't caused issues with being able to chip or not. Typically, I can get most of the chipping done in a few days for 1/35 project. A couple of days or a week is about as much as I would push this technique, in general. It was never intended, nor offered up as a way to paint this layered process, and then chip whenever you want (or are able to) over the course of many weeks. It's been noted elsewhere that you can, and it is possible to do so, but you are probably asking too much of it in this regards to wait weeks before starting, as a matter of course.

You will get the best results during the painting session for sure, with typical working window of time about 1-2 weeks maximum. There was a great thread on the now deleted MiG productions forums covering HS/CF applications at great length with many top guys participating in tests, so it's a shame after 10 years we are sorta back to square one with this conversation. The achilles heel of the internet...

That said, you could have easily been too conservative on how much HS went down prior, and then covered it with too opaque of a top coat, as well. Therefore, the main factor against chipping may not have been time at all. Kinda of hard to really know from here, but it's my guess these two factors were also likely involved.

It's why I say test and practice, get the HS chipping to work right, then start to apply it to your own projects. I cannot emphasis this part enough.

My suggestions, is try to work within a reasonable window of time. Practice a few times to get good solid results, repeat it to make sure it works right, then plan your project painting sessions.

I recently went to the Moson show in Hungary, I prepped my demo model a week prior to the show with Mission Models Paints, HS, etc., flew to the show and about a week after being there started to chip it in the hotel room, then chipped it again over the next few days of seminars -- and it all worked great. It was very impressive to see happen. That was a bit of an eye-opener, and expect me to really push MMP as the best paint for chipping in this manner. My recent results have been exceptional, better than Tamiya even.

The main factors for HS/CF success are going to be the opacity of the paint (and the thinner used), and how much HS is put down. Followed by time, but time isn't a major factor in the size and style of chips. Once the HS has been covered with paint it tends to be stable for a while, at least a few days for sure. But this shouldn't be the main factor in how the chips will ultimately look. This is mainly controlled by HS/CF application and the top paint layer applications, plus how much water is used during the chipping part.

If you can't get anything going at all, too little HS is almost always the cause, followed closely by too little paint on top. The vinyl/latex acrylics (Vallejo, AK, etc) are harder to get this balance correct because of how they build up during spraying, and how they dry as a sheet (not impossible of course, just more factors involved for real success).

The lacquer acrylics (Tamiya), and new urethane acrylics (MMP) have better chipping properties when used in this manner. In laymen's terms they do not dry in the same way, and allow for finer chips and scratches, better working window of time and are more forgiving of mistakes.

If you start to chip and the flakes are too large or come off extremely easily, almost the moment you touch them, for example, then too much HS/CF has been applied in most cases. A gloss or polished surface underneath the HS/CF will only exaggerate this process, so if you spray gloss, reduce the HS amount, or add a thin layer of matte prior to spraying HS/CF. Grit and surface texture from a matte surfaces provide superior and finer chipping results, with more control and less issues over the course of chipping the model (whether in one go, or over multiple sessions).

Again, practice with the products you prefer to use, I suggest over doing it with the amount of HS/CF used and seeing what happens, then spray only one layer of HS/CF and see how that performs. Try various thinners for your brand of paint to see what effects they have. Spray very thin paint layers and chip that, spray very opaque layers and chip that... and so on.

And don't expect great results out-of-the-gate, it definitely takes a few sessions with solid repeatable results to get the hang of it due to the multiple factors involved. That said, if you can get it to work for you, the results are well worth the initial learning curve to get there.

Michael
RSP

Mike,

Thanks so much for the detailed reply.

I totally agree on practicing to acquire a new skill, but this gives me a much better understanding of the time window I should be planning for.

If I'm going in thinking I've got weeks, I'm probably not going to have the same luck as someone who understands the time is in hours, days.

I also appreciate the qualitative statements on the balance between HS and paint. I'll be sure to apply them when I start to practice once I have time later this summer.

Again, I really appreciate the time you took on this reply. It was a great help.

Hopefully I'll be able to attend if you ever do another seminar at Hornet Hobbies up here in Toronto. I haven't been able to make the previous ones.

All the best.

Paul

I tried using Elmer's rubber cement, painted/dabbed onto Gray enamel, then airbrushed white Vallejo Acrylic. Let it dry then started "chipping" with a cloth.
Works like a charm.

I'm going to experiment with drying times, but with the rubber cement, you should be able to chip after weeks.

If I could figure out how to upload a picture now without having to signup for another service, then I'll upload.

My pleasure Paul, yes definitely visit Hornet Hobbies when they offer the clinics. I try to do it at least annually, the set up is great and there is a lot of close-up one-on-one time to hone in some skills. Hope to see you next time!

Michael
RSP

This is basically what was done before HS came around, dabbing stuff like Maskol (or even veggimite) on the paint with sponges/brushes, spray paint over this, them remove the areas with the agent present. It works great, but essentially you are tied into the size and shape of those applied areas. It will only get you so far towards a useful chipping process for nearly all effects needed, which is the true power of HS.

The HS/CF goes down as a thin even layer over the whole surface and this allows for natural and much more random looking chips/scratches, thus are more realistic in the end. Especially regarding the size and in-scale look. The process is basically the same either way, and once you've done it a few times will give great results.

Michael
RSP