Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Waffen SS Panzer Division vehicle markings
Namerifrats
Joined: May 26, 2014
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 07:24 AM UTC
Mainly interested in the 1st (LSSAH), 2nd (Das Reich), and 3rd (Totenkopf) SS Panzer Divisions. They seem to be the most notorious when it comes to documentaries I've watched on both the eastern and western front. I found a couple sheets of decals that Archer makes, has all the markings in 1/35,48,and 72 scales for these divisions and many of the others. Thought about doing a couple vehicles based of these divisions, but can't seem to find any photos with tanks bearing any of the markings. Found a picture of a Stug with a skull, but didn't look like the Totenkopf skull. Anybody have any references of info on these units and markings?
Jmarles
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,138 posts
Armorama: 953 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 07:32 AM UTC
There are many volumes written on this subject, I would suggest you do a bit of online research. Avoid older books that have misinformation. Star decals and quite a few other co.'s do SS decals, and of course Tamiya and Dragon include lots of options in their kits. Tamiya also sells seperate decal sheets.
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
MrCompletely
Joined: February 12, 2016
KitMaker: 128 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 08:34 AM UTC
To be honest, this is a pretty well covered subject, I can't understand what difficulties you could be having either researching it or finding decals.
Namerifrats
Joined: May 26, 2014
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 08:50 PM UTC
Never said finding decals was an issue. I found them, made by Archer, said so in my post. When I Google things like "Waffen SS panzer markings", "SS panzer division vehicle markings", etc. I get plenty of old B&W photos of tanks. None that I can find show tanks with the markings matching the decals. I was hoping maybe somebody had a link to a reference site that would show proper locations for said decals. I did find some stuff, but the markings are completely different. For instance, the main markings in question are the ones shown here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Waffen-SS_divisions
Paulinsibculo
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 - 11:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There are many volumes written on this subject, I would suggest you do a bit of online research. Avoid older books that have misinformation. Star decals and quite a few other co.'s do SS decals, and of course Tamiya and Dragon include lots of options in their kits. Tamiya also sells seperate decal sheets.
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
Dear Julian,
Quite some identification sign weren't applied since replacement had to be swift. Thus vehicles came from factories and were forwarded to those units which needed them at short term, leaving no time to fully 'decorate' them. Since some crews used their own individual rules things started to differ from official guide lines. Don't forget: they were used to fight, not to show around.
Have a look into the book 'Die Panzer Instandsetzung der Wehrmacht' von Lukas Friedli.
Furthermore, modern research changed quite some 'short after the war' ideas of 'good' and 'bad' units. Quite some severe offences were commited by Wehrmacht units and from SS units reports are known that they refused to participate in ethnic cleasing activities. Helen Frey's book 'The M room' offers a good view on this theme.
Jmarles
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,138 posts
Armorama: 953 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 07:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThere are many volumes written on this subject, I would suggest you do a bit of online research. Avoid older books that have misinformation. Star decals and quite a few other co.'s do SS decals, and of course Tamiya and Dragon include lots of options in their kits. Tamiya also sells seperate decal sheets.
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
Dear Julian,
Quite some identification sign weren't applied since replacement had to be swift. Thus vehicles came from factories and were forwarded to those units which needed them at short term, leaving no time to fully 'decorate' them. Since some crews used their own individual rules things started to differ from official guide lines. Don't forget: they were used to fight, not to show around.
Have a look into the book 'Die Panzer Instandsetzung der Wehrmacht' von Lukas Friedli.
Furthermore, modern research changed quite some 'short after the war' ideas of 'good' and 'bad' units. Quite some severe offences were commited by Wehrmacht units and from SS units reports are known that they refused to participate in ethnic cleasing activities. Helen Frey's book 'The M room' offers a good view on this theme.
Yes I am aware, I have devoted many years to this subject. What I really meant was some of the older reference books from the 70s & 80s have some old and incorrect information. Yes Archer and Star too, have some really nice decals.Anyway it sounds like you are well on the way.
Namerifrats
Joined: May 26, 2014
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 09:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
I'll do some research on these other units you've mentioned. Never really saw much mentioned as far as atrocities and stuff other than the first 3 divisions.
Paulinsibculo
Joined: July 01, 2010
KitMaker: 1,322 posts
Armorama: 1,239 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 10:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
As for noteriety, it was often the secondline and foreign volunteer "divisions" that were truly barbaric. Handschar; Florien Geyer, SS Polizei, Dirlewanger, etc.
I'll do some research on these other units you've mentioned. Never really saw much mentioned as far as atrocities and stuff other than the first 3 divisions.
The book "The M Room", describing the way the British were listening to talks between German PoW's, who thought that nobody could hear them, gives quite some examples of various units. But it also describes how individuals went over boarders. Certainly worth reading and revealing a rather unknown way of gathering intelligence. It was so unique that they only recently allowed publication about it.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 02:19 PM UTC
Shield on a LAH Tiger, winter 42-43:
Shield on a LAH Tiger, winter 43-44:
David
Shield on a LAH Tiger, winter 43-44:
David
Namerifrats
Joined: May 26, 2014
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 - 07:07 PM UTC
Thanks for these pics! The kind of shots I've been looking for.
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Friday, July 28, 2017 - 04:14 AM UTC
The "Byzantine SS" which were responsible for a lot of atrocities, by and large were not equipped with tanks, although some of the Panzergrenadier units, e.g. 16 SS "Reichfuhrer SS" had Stugs, and 7 "Prinz Eugen" had obsolete French equipment. However, "LAH", "Das Reich" and "Totenkopf" certainly committed war crimes; to mention a few, "LAH" at Wormhoudt and the Ardennes, "Das Reich", Oradour-sur-Glane and "Totenkopf" Le Paradis. You can frequently find photos of soft-skins bearing the symbols of these divisions, but remember that the Waffen SS only began to receive armour in 1942, the period you are most likely to see the symbols on tanks is during the Kharkov operation in the winter of 1942-3. In the summer of 1943, special symbols were introduced for "Zitadelle" to disguise the presence of these three divisions, in each case a horizontal bar with one, two or three upward strokes. I have seen "Totenkopf" Panthers marked with the skull symbol (this would be 1944), however many of the Waffen SS Panzer units did not mark their tanks, particularly Panthers. "HJ" (12SS) definitely DID mark their vehicles, conversely "Hohenstaufen"(9SS) and "Frundesberg" (10SS) almost never did.
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.