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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
how long before doing wash?
godfather
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Canada
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:13 AM UTC
I was wondering (sorry about the noob question) but how long do you wait to apply the wash? Does the base coat have to be totally dry? Same for the bry brush should the wash to be completely dry?
Ribble
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:50 AM UTC
Padrino,
The answer is yes to both questions. When you do your wash make sure your paint has fully cured (I wait a few days). Don't forget to do your wash with a dissimilar medium than what you have on the model i.e. Acrylic or ink wash over enamel base or enamel/oil wash over acrylic base. If you don't do this the thinning agent in the wash will eat at you basecoat when you go to wipe the wash off. the way I do it is to use enamels as the base followed by a coat of clear Acrylic gloss (future), then an enamel wash, and lastly a coat of clear flat or semi-gloss. It works well for me

JC Hayes
sniper
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was wondering (sorry about the noob question) but how long do you wait to apply the wash? Does the base coat have to be totally dry? Same for the bry brush should the wash to be completely dry?



I like to let my base coat of paint (acrylics) dry at least overnight before using a wash of oils thinned with white spirits. If I can, I like to wait 48 hours before the wash. This way I'm certain that the paint is good and dry and there is less of a chance of the wash effecting the base coat.

As far as the drybrush question, I use oils for my drybrushing and therefore it is a must that the wash is completely dry before starting. If I don't let the white spirits from that wash dry and evaporate, my drybrushing will turn into a painting session and just mix in with my previous wash.

Often, I will spary a clearcoat (dullcoat) over my painted and washed vehicle before the drybrushing. This eliminates any chance of the wash being affected by the drybrushing.

Remember, some folks will spray on a gloss coat or Future floor finish after painting and before the wash. It is easier to control the wash on a gloss surface and remove any excess wash that you may not want. Also, this is a good time to apply any decals.

If using the Future, be sure to let that dry a good 48 hours. Especially if you are going to be decaling over it and using any kind of a solvent. And if you do use a solvent on your Future coat and you get white spots in the Future, don't panic! Just put on more Future over the top of the white spots and they should vanish!

The wash and drybrush may give a glossy shine to the vehicle. A good dullcoat will make it look like a tank again!

And, if you have trouble waiting between steps, have a couple kits in various stages of construction at the same time. That way, while waiting for paint to dry you can be putting together track links for another kit!

Steve
Greg
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:10 AM UTC
I too let the paint dry for several days--up to five. I then spray a coat of Glosscote lacquer overthe whole model. This gives a smooth surface for decals (to eliminate silvering) as well as giving the advantages listed above for controlling the wash. I use Testors or Humbrol enamels for painting, and thinned versions of same for my washes. With the lacquer barrier the underlying base color isn't affected. After I'm done with decals and washes, I seal the model with Dullcote to flatten the finish before starting to drybrush.

Greg
Cob
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:10 AM UTC
Last night, I applied a wash to my M-20's interior. I used tamiya for the base, waited 3 days, sprayed a coat of future, waited two days, then I applied a wash of dirty testor thinner. When I wiped off the excess the base coat came up in several places. I got torqued off at the thought of all that work down the drain, but after calming down and thinking about it, I cmae up with two possible reasons:
1. I didn't wash the plastic to remove oils or release agents prior to applying the base coat 2. I didn't wait long enough after applying the wash to remove the excess ( I had a paper towel with some thinner on it for that purpose).
Maybe someone can point out where I went wrong before I start over.
Greg
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 02:31 AM UTC
Tough one there, Cob. I would guess that some mold-release oil is at the root of the problem. Wash the model thouroughly in dishwashing soap; I usually do mine seeral times as I go through the process of sanding, etc. I do one final VERY gentle washing just before painting, so I don't break off "fiddly bits", as the English say. I don't think that not waiting to clean up the wash was an issue, but the Future might have been incompatible with the thinner you use. I have stayed away from Future myself for years; the Testors lacquers work just dandy IMO....
Greg
Folgore
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 03:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have stayed away from Future myself for years; the Testors lacquers work just dandy IMO....



I use the Testors lacquers as well. They work well and, being a lacquer, dry very quickly.

Nic
TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 07:26 AM UTC
I'll probably generate some Flak from the other's here, but I don't generally use 'Future' . The main reason that is always sited for Future's use is "it's cheap". Ya know what folks, the time I spend on my modeling is not, I repeat, not cheap! So, based on that self-serving estimate of my modeling time, I use nothing that is "cheap". I made a decision long ago, that anything I use is not 'cheap', but 'right'. No matter the cost. Period.
I know that may sound pompous, but it's not. It's just common mathematics.
Anyway, to your query Cob.
Since, as you stated, you " applied a wash of dirty testor {b]thinner[/b]" my friend Inspector Clouseau, believes that what you essentially did was, RE-affect the base coat thru the coat of Future. So, using the method you described, there was no other outcome.
In the future (no pun intended) apply a base coat of enamel if you are going to paint the model in acrylics, or base it in acrylics if you are going to paint in enamels.
My suggestion? Base in enamel (wait approx 2 to 3days to dry), clear coat with Testors spray (a little more expensive but worth it / allow 2 days to dry), AB your acrylic top/cloud/hilite coat (wait a day for drying), brush on your oil wash (take a couple of days to 'manipulate' and a approx. 3 to 4 to dry). Use acrylics for your dry-brushing, or pencils for your 'chipping', or pastels for your shadowing/hiliting. Done.

Tread.

Don't listen to me, I'm full of Sh*t....don't believe me? Just ask my wife.
GeneralFailure
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European Union
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 07:45 AM UTC
we can't get "future" in Belgium. We do have some tough laquers that probably much the same.
I've used it to put a "glass" coating on the kitchen floor, and it was great stuff. But none of the many products I tried could get the stuff out of my brushes. So I'm worried it may ruin my airbrush too, since I wouldn't know how to dilute or dissolve it. How do you dilute "Future"?
Armour66
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 08:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

we can't get "future" in Belgium. We do have some tough laquers that probably much the same.
I've used it to put a "glass" coating on the kitchen floor, and it was great stuff. But none of the many products I tried could get the stuff out of my brushes. So I'm worried it may ruin my airbrush too, since I wouldn't know how to dilute or dissolve it. How do you dilute "Future"?



The great thing about Future, is that you do not have to dilute it, sInce it is an acrylic water-based medium.

My 2 cents...and it only costs a penny
sniper
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'll probably generate some Flak from the other's here, but I don't generally use 'Future' . The main reason that is always sited for Future's use is "it's cheap". Ya know what folks, the time I spend on my modeling is not, I repeat, not cheap! So, based on that self-serving estimate of my modeling time, I use nothing that is "cheap". I made a decision long ago, that anything I use is not 'cheap', but 'right'. No matter the cost. Period.

(snip)

Use acrylics for your dry-brushing, or pencils for your 'chipping', or pastels for your shadowing/hiliting. Done.



Well, lots of very ecperienced modelers use Future and swear by it. You do, however, need to be carefull and make sure it cures fully, etc.

As for it being "cheap," it is not. It is an excellent product that just happens to be adaptable to modeling. But hey, if you want to spend 10 times as much for a similar product that happens to be packaged by a company that deals with model builders, feel free.

Personally, I get annoyed that I have to buy a tiny spray can for $4 or $5 just because it is a "modeling" product. Anything I can use that is similar and cheaper, I will keep my eye out for. Not becasue I am "cheap" or don't value my hobby time, but because I would rather put that extra money back into buying another kit or detail set.

Coming from being a fine arts major in college and now working in a creative/arts field, I enjoy using a variety of materials from a variety of sources. And when I was a student, I was poor and had no choice but to be very creative with my spending. (Yippeee! Not anymore!!!!!)

I would suggest to anyone out there who want's to give Future a try not to be afraid. A bottle will last a looooong time! If you don't like it, put it on the kitchen floor for a good shine!

As far as using acrylics to drybrush with, don't you find the paint dries too quickly? I use oils because, agian, you can buy a good set that will last a very long time and they can be blended and worked with for a long time becaue they don't dry out on the brush immediately.

I do use enamles to drybrush silver or metalic colors as I find that they work better than say a silver oil paint (the oils seem to have too corse a pigment in 1/35 scale.)

Hey, everyone has their own techniques but don't be afraid of something because you don't pay for it at the hobby shop!

Steve
TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2002 - 10:25 AM UTC
Your input is very much appreciated sniper, my comments about the use of Future are simply personal opinion. My observations about the product are, additionally, from hearing numerous reports on the pros and con's of the product itself over a number of years. Using 'substitute' materials is not a new trend. People have been doing it for years.
My reference to 'cheap' is applicable to my time and application of effort to the hobby. I would use Future if I had COMPLETE confidence in my use of a substitute. I do not. On the other hand, I have complete confidence in using a product that simply costs me a couple of dollars more and lasts for several models. (good value for the dollar spent IMHO). :-)
As to using acrylics for drybrushing. I do tend to gravitate to acrylics for this part of the procedure because I do not overdo the drybrushing as most of my European counterparts seem to do. So the fast drying time of the acrylics is of no real concern. As to using oils for the drybrushing part of the process, I have been toying with the oils but have not really come to terms with any great 'advantage' yet.
Still working on it though.

Tread.
screamingeagle
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 12:06 AM UTC
If your wanting to weather over your acrylic finish with a
oil or enamel solvent wash, you really can apply it without the
use of a protective clear coat, alongs you let it dry & cure for a full 24-48 hrs.
The acrylic is strong enough to hold-up against a solvent wash by itself.

However, if your acrylic was solvent based such as Polly-Scale ( which some
modelers aren't aware of ) then you would consider the clear coat.

BUT:
The method I have always used with my enamels base finishes involves
application's of oil & enamel solvent washes exclusively, but I don't use clear protective coats, simply because I find that the less surface build up you have, the better for your raised detail to stand out, the more you have, and all the better for drybrushing it.
So what I do is let the enamel finish dry & cure for 72hrs, then I apply my solvent based wash. Using this method for the past 2 year's, I don't need to worry about the undercoat lifting and it hasn't ever happened.

The key is - the 72hrs dry time of the enamel painted finish and when time
is right for the application of the wash, I just let it:
" FLOW - SETTLE - & REMOVE EXCESS " ( with a dry brush that soaks up the excesss instead of a tissue - This also eliminates any lint being left on the model surface ).
My point is if it can be done with enamels, it certainly can be done with acrylics !
Also, I find if you start messing with and really wiping down the surface of the still wet wash, then yes, you are going to have some trouble with paint lift & seperation.

I do like matte & gloss clear coats, however I only use them for their intended purpose -
" to give paint a DEAD FLAT finish and to GLOSS a finish, especially when going to apply decals.
Remember, if you decide to try this, the dry & cure time's are essential to good results:
24-48 Hours for any finished water based paints.
72 Hours for any finished solvent based paints.
Some modelers just feel more secure with a protective clear coat , and that's
quite alright, but this is the method I prefer and it can be achieved with excellent result's
if done correctly & with patience.
- ralph

screamingeagle
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 12:37 AM UTC
Tread & Steve I agree with you both, and I must
say that I follow the same standard's as Tread - that
it is better to go with "quality ".
I mean we put so much into our hobby, that why should one skimp
when it come's to spending a few extra dollars for something that
will give great results and make an noticable overall difference.
I'm not just talking about these liquid's, but brushes, paints, tools, etc.
For the record, " I do have a bottle of "Future " on my bench "
but I have Testors Dullcote & Glosscote on the bench, and
one extra bottle of each in stock.
GOOD STUFF GUY"S
- ralph
sniper
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I mean we put so much into our hobby, that why should one skimp
when it come's to spending a few extra dollars for something that
will give great results and make an noticable overall difference.
I'm not just talking about these liquid's, but brushes, paints, tools, etc.



I agree Ralph, there is no substitute for quality and what's an extra few buck when it comes to hours and hours (and hours ) of work.

But, I do think people should keep an open mind when searching for new materials, methods, etc. There's a lot of great stuff adaptable to our hobby at the art supply store that we would never think of if we just limited ourselves to the hobby shop.

To me, that's lot's of the fun. That can be a real creative rush when you think of a new way to use something. I think that's one thing I got out of my education, trying (hopefully) to think of new ways to do things.

You guys are correct when you say not to take shortcuts to save a buck, though. I too use the Testors dull coat, etc, and swear by them.

As to your other point about not using a dull or gloss coat between the base coat and the wash, I agree and that's my usual method too. Some people like to wash over the gloss but on armor, I like the effects over the flat acrylics. Then again, I like a very worn paint job on my finished models.

Steve
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 03:27 AM UTC
This is for General Failure:

Hoi,

Je kunt Future wel bij ons krijgen, ik heb recentelijk contact opgenomen met Hohnson Belgium en volgens hun heet het hier Johnsonwax Sols Plus, ik heb een grote fles bij Carrefour gehaald.

Heb het net gebruikt en lijkt te kloppen met Future.

desert_fox
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Estonia
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 06:55 AM UTC
i would suggest to wait couple of days. otherwise you might destroy your work. even better would be to cover whole model with "clear poly" (humbrol 25) and wait couple of days. then washes and after that "matt varnish" (humbrol 49)
TreadHead
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 07:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


I mean we put so much into our hobby, that why should one skimp
when it come's to spending a few extra dollars for something that
will give great results and make an noticable overall difference.
I'm not just talking about these liquid's, but brushes, paints, tools, etc.



I agree Ralph, there is no substitute for quality and what's an extra few buck when it comes to hours and hours (and hours ) of work.

But, I do think people should keep an open mind when searching for new materials, methods, etc. There's a lot of great stuff adaptable to our hobby at the art supply store that we would never think of if we just limited ourselves to the hobby shop.

To me, that's lot's of the fun. That can be a real creative rush when you think of a new way to use something. I think that's one thing I got out of my education, trying (hopefully) to think of new ways to do things.

You guys are correct when you say not to take shortcuts to save a buck, though. I too use the Testors dull coat, etc, and swear by them.

As to your other point about not using a dull or gloss coat between the base coat and the wash, I agree and that's my usual method too. Some people like to wash over the gloss but on armor, I like the effects over the flat acrylics. Then again, I like a very worn paint job on my finished models.

Steve



Steve, your input is 'spot-on', and I agree with you in principle. Unfortunately I do not have the courage (or youth) to experimant with my hard-earned time. Hence, the use of 'garaunteed' products. I guess I'm saying that I 've been working long enough, and have made enough money that dependability is my friend more so than experimentation. I will leave that, and depend upon you 'younging's' do deliver the verdict on that!

Tread.
screamingeagle
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Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 09:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

[

I agree Ralph,
But, I do think people should keep an open mind when searching for new materials, methods, etc. There's a lot of great stuff adaptable to our hobby at the art supply store that we would never think of if we just limited ourselves to the hobby shop.

To me, that's lot's of the fun. That can be a real creative rush when you think of a new way to use something. I think that's one thing I got out of my education, trying (hopefully) to think of new ways to do things.

Steve


Hi Steve.
No arguement here, even though I do have my standards, I do think your absolutely
right about keeping an open-mind. I should of been a bit more thorough in my reply,
Because, there are things that can work quite well out of experimentation.
I hope you didn't think I was directing what I said about "skimping towards you personaly.
I'm very sorry if I made it seem that way and I apologize.
I just like what you & Tread had to say on the subject, and I just wanted to put
in my two-cents towards adding to the point in general.
REGARDS.
- ralph
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