Hosted by Darren Baker
Tiger 2 track slack adjustment
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 12:07 AM UTC
I know this has to have been discussed many times previously but I couldn't find those discussions. Can anyone tell me what the allowable adjustment is on a Dragon Tiger II tank? I have not been able to find the actual amount of adjustment allowed on a Tiger II that translates to the Dragon model. What would be the allowed range (maximum to minimum) of the mounting arm for the idler wheel on a 1/35 Tiger II model?
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 01:26 AM UTC
This is the amount of track slack for a KT:
KT Track Tension
just enough to not touch the first roadwheel.
KT Track Tension
just enough to not touch the first roadwheel.
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 01:43 AM UTC
Joe,
I understand what you were getting at. I appreciate the info. However, what I was really looking for was the allowed position of the idler wheel arm. That is, what positions, in terms of, say, degrees that the arm can be secured. Let's say that 0 degrees is straight up, 90 degrees is pointing fully to the right, 180 is down, etc. On the real tank, what was the 'maximum' and 'minimum' positions that that the idler wheel arm could be adjusted? Knowing this, and the maximum allowed slack that you pointed out, will tell me how many links I can use, and then do the 'fine tuning' with the arm. Thanks!
I understand what you were getting at. I appreciate the info. However, what I was really looking for was the allowed position of the idler wheel arm. That is, what positions, in terms of, say, degrees that the arm can be secured. Let's say that 0 degrees is straight up, 90 degrees is pointing fully to the right, 180 is down, etc. On the real tank, what was the 'maximum' and 'minimum' positions that that the idler wheel arm could be adjusted? Knowing this, and the maximum allowed slack that you pointed out, will tell me how many links I can use, and then do the 'fine tuning' with the arm. Thanks!
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 02:30 AM UTC
Length of a link: the distance from the forward edge to the rearward edge of a link (parallell to the side of the tank).
Width of a link: the distance from left to right side of the link, 90 degree angle to the side of the hull.
Tiger II had two different links (see the images at the end of this post) or just look at the tracks in your kit) so the length of a link means the combined length of one of each type since they must be inserted/removed as a complete pair.
If the track is too tight I need to insert one pair and the idler needs to move backwards to take up slightly less than the length of one pair so it needs to move back by half the length of a pair (half a pair on the top run, half a pair on the lower run). If the idler moved back more than half a pair then the track would be just as tight as before.
Similar movement if the track is too loose, half a pair forward. This means that the idler arm doesn't need to be rotated very much.
I Googled some images and found some with the idler almost overlapping the rearmost roadwheel and others were it was about a hands width further back.
Moved back
Moved forward
.jpg)
Sort of a halfway position
Backwards (maybe not all the way?)
Forwards
A moving one on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dhPW_ksFcM
If I may guess (without having access to the tank mechanics guidebook) I would say that the forward position is for fresh (not yet worn out) tracks and that the idler was moved backwards until it was time to remove a whole track link pair.
One millimetre of wear in each "hinge" would mean 92 millimetres (or 3.6 inches) for a whole track, two millimetres would be 7.2 inches and I beleive that is close to the length of one track link pair.
Doing it for real:
Compare the track links, two types, with the size of their hands.
/ Robin
Width of a link: the distance from left to right side of the link, 90 degree angle to the side of the hull.
Tiger II had two different links (see the images at the end of this post) or just look at the tracks in your kit) so the length of a link means the combined length of one of each type since they must be inserted/removed as a complete pair.
If the track is too tight I need to insert one pair and the idler needs to move backwards to take up slightly less than the length of one pair so it needs to move back by half the length of a pair (half a pair on the top run, half a pair on the lower run). If the idler moved back more than half a pair then the track would be just as tight as before.
Similar movement if the track is too loose, half a pair forward. This means that the idler arm doesn't need to be rotated very much.
I Googled some images and found some with the idler almost overlapping the rearmost roadwheel and others were it was about a hands width further back.
Moved back
Moved forward
Sort of a halfway position
Backwards (maybe not all the way?)
Forwards
A moving one on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dhPW_ksFcM
If I may guess (without having access to the tank mechanics guidebook) I would say that the forward position is for fresh (not yet worn out) tracks and that the idler was moved backwards until it was time to remove a whole track link pair.
One millimetre of wear in each "hinge" would mean 92 millimetres (or 3.6 inches) for a whole track, two millimetres would be 7.2 inches and I beleive that is close to the length of one track link pair.
Doing it for real:
Compare the track links, two types, with the size of their hands.
/ Robin
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 02:40 AM UTC
The KT used 92 links per run. Using Kgs 73/800/300 track links, that would include the bridge links (46 0f each); using the later Kgs 73/800/152, 92 since there were no bridge links. Start with the idler arm at 240/-30 deg. (left side)/120 deg. (rt. side), which means the arm is pointing to the hub on the last roadwheel on either side. From there, turn the idler counterclockwise (toward the rear) on the left side and clockwise on the right until the track doesn't touch the first roadwheel and barely makes contact with the second. The track should rest on top of the third roadwheel and slightly above the last roadwheel (next to the idler). If you're using the kit-supplied Magic tracks, it'll be pretty tedious. If you are going to use AM track links, I would suggest that you use Masterclub resin tracks. They're lighter than Fruil or Spade Ace metal links and they won't stretch over time due to their weight.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 02:40 AM UTC
About them track links.
Them German engineers were tricky ....
I found the text below at this link:
http://www.koenigstiger.ch/english/technical-details.html
/ Robin
"Tracks:
The cross-country tracks of the King Tiger had a width of 800 mm in order to reduce the ground pressure to a reasonable value.
For rail transportation narrower transportation tracks needed to be put on because the wider tracks exceeded the maximum clearance width which allows rail car transportation.
Transportation tracks had a width of 660 mm. an experienced team was able to change a track with ca. 30 min.
Three different cross-country tracks were used for the King Tiger during its production time:
Initially the one-piece cross-country track Gg 24/800/300 was used. Each link had an opening for a cog of the sprocket and a sprocket had 18 cogs.
Starting in may 1944 the two-piece track Gg 26/800/300 was used. The connecting links didn’t have cog openings and the sprocket had only 9 cogs.
In November 1944 or march 1945 (two serious sources are incoherent) a switch again to a new single-piece track Kgs 73/800/153 occurred.
The transportation tracks apparently never changed.
The cross-country tracks weighted 2.8 to 3.3 to. while the transportation weighted ca. 1.9 to.
Ground pressures was 1,02 kg/cm2 for the two-piece cross-country track and 1.23 kg/cm2 for the transportation tracks."
Them German engineers were tricky ....
I found the text below at this link:
http://www.koenigstiger.ch/english/technical-details.html
/ Robin
"Tracks:
The cross-country tracks of the King Tiger had a width of 800 mm in order to reduce the ground pressure to a reasonable value.
For rail transportation narrower transportation tracks needed to be put on because the wider tracks exceeded the maximum clearance width which allows rail car transportation.
Transportation tracks had a width of 660 mm. an experienced team was able to change a track with ca. 30 min.
Three different cross-country tracks were used for the King Tiger during its production time:
Initially the one-piece cross-country track Gg 24/800/300 was used. Each link had an opening for a cog of the sprocket and a sprocket had 18 cogs.
Starting in may 1944 the two-piece track Gg 26/800/300 was used. The connecting links didn’t have cog openings and the sprocket had only 9 cogs.
In November 1944 or march 1945 (two serious sources are incoherent) a switch again to a new single-piece track Kgs 73/800/153 occurred.
The transportation tracks apparently never changed.
The cross-country tracks weighted 2.8 to 3.3 to. while the transportation weighted ca. 1.9 to.
Ground pressures was 1,02 kg/cm2 for the two-piece cross-country track and 1.23 kg/cm2 for the transportation tracks."
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 03:13 AM UTC
Die Sohlen der Tiger is a useful reference for us modeling guys. 
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 02:37 PM UTC
for "us" who can read German
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Friday, September 01, 2017 - 10:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
for "us" who can read German
What "read"? Just look at the pitchers. They're worth ten thousand words after taxes and other applicable fees.
I'll work on an English version PDF and post a d/l link.
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 06:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The KT used 92 links per run. Using Kgs 73/800/300 track links, that would include the bridge links (46 0f each); using the later Kgs 73/800/152, 92 since there were no bridge links. Start with the idler arm at 240/-30 deg. (left side)/120 deg. (rt. side), which means the arm is pointing to the hub on the last roadwheel on either side. From there, turn the idler counterclockwise (toward the rear) on the left side and clockwise on the right until the track doesn't touch the first roadwheel and barely makes contact with the second. The track should rest on top of the third roadwheel and slightly above the last roadwheel (next to the idler). If you're using the kit-supplied Magic tracks, it'll be pretty tedious. If you are going to use AM track links, I would suggest that you use Masterclub resin tracks. They're lighter than Fruil or Spade Ace metal links and they won't stretch over time due to their weight.
Joe,
Now THAT'S what I was looking for from the beginning....thank you sir! I am already set on using Fruil tracks, and in fact, I already have the set completed (put together), though not painted or rusted in any kind of rusting/aging fluid, though I do still have some Blacken-It from years ago that I have not used, and I just recently bought the Wilder version of the rusting fluid. Not sure if I'll go that route or just paint them. I might try the Wilder stuff just to see how it works. I have had a set of Fruil tracks on a 1/35 Tiger I for about 5 years now, and haven't noticed and stretching or loosening of the tracks, but I would say that the Tiger I tracks are considerably less heavy than a set of Tiger II tracks, which are MASSIVE in metal.
cabasner
Joined: February 12, 2012
KitMaker: 1,083 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:03 AM UTC
A little off topic on my own thread... I decided to use the Wilder Quick Rust on my Fruil metal tracks. I started by painting them, using Tamiya paint, and was completely unhappy with the results. So, I washed all the paint off with Windex (a really easy thing to do, by the way). After they dried, I tried Wilder's suggestion of brushing on the Quick Rust, and while pretty tedious with Tiger 2 tracks, the stuff works well, and I ended up using only about 1/3 of the bottle, plus being water based, not so hard to deal with.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 09:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Doing it for real:
Compare the track links, two types, with the size of their hands.
/ Robin
That shows crew doing a track repair, not adjusting tension. Track was always broken between the sprocket and ground. Easiest and safest place to work. Tanker's bar and sledge hammer, I know them well.
Track tension was adjusted at the rear using a large spanner to move the idler. Most tanks are done in similar fashion. The spanner can also be shaped like a crank.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 10:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Doing it for real:
Compare the track links, two types, with the size of their hands.
/ Robin
That shows crew doing a track repair, not adjusting tension. Track was always broken between the sprocket and ground. Easiest and safest place to work. Tanker's bar and sledge hammer, I know them well.
Track tension was adjusted at the rear using a large spanner to move the idler. Most tanks are done in similar fashion. The spanner can also be shaped like a crank.
Yes dear, I know perfectly well that they are assembling/connecting the ends of the track to form a loop.
I included the image to show the relative size of the links to illustrate the number of centimeters/inches that the track need to be adjusted with. When it is more than one link or pair of links then the slack can be corrected by removing a link instead of an excessive movement of the idler.
The text before the two images could possibly provide a clue to the careful reader
"If I may guess (without having access to the tank mechanics guidebook) I would say that the forward position is for fresh (not yet worn out) tracks and that the idler was moved backwards until it was time to remove a whole track link pair.
One millimetre of wear in each "hinge" would mean 92 millimetres (or 3.6 inches) for a whole track, two millimetres would be 7.2 inches and I beleive that is close to the length of one track link pair.
Doing it for real: "
/ Robin
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 11:57 AM UTC
Sorry all those years of breathing exhaust and actually adjusting real life track tension and actually breaking track.had left me a little dim. Definitely damaged reading comprehension especially of garbled notes composed of sentence fragments. You may think you communicated your point clearly, but it was not.
In all likelihood the manual would give a time/mileage estimate when the track could be expected to expand. Or you just dismount the co-driver at every stop as was standard operating procedure to check the track. Never know when you'd shed a pin either. Track wear estimates are just that, estimates, so a good tank commander would be up on these things. Once you saw the track sag too much you'd go adjust it. And you'd record mileage religiously.
Wouldn't surprise me if there were Panzer crew who could just walk by a tank and tell the track tension was off.
In all likelihood the manual would give a time/mileage estimate when the track could be expected to expand. Or you just dismount the co-driver at every stop as was standard operating procedure to check the track. Never know when you'd shed a pin either. Track wear estimates are just that, estimates, so a good tank commander would be up on these things. Once you saw the track sag too much you'd go adjust it. And you'd record mileage religiously.
Wouldn't surprise me if there were Panzer crew who could just walk by a tank and tell the track tension was off.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 12:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry all those years of breathing exhaust and actually adjusting real life track tension and actually breaking track.had left me a little dim. Definitely damaged reading comprehension especially of garbled notes composed of sentence fragments. You may think you communicated your point clearly, but it was not.
In all likelihood the manual would give a time/mileage estimate when the track could be expected to expand. Or you just dismount the co-driver at every stop as was standard operating procedure to check the track. Never know when you'd shed a pin either. Track wear estimates are just that, estimates, so a good tank commander would be up on these things. Once you saw the track sag too much you'd go adjust it. And you'd record mileage religiously.
Wouldn't surprise me if there were Panzer crew who could just walk by a tank and tell the track tension was off.
Telling if a track is "off": definitely. Position of idler and the way it sags (many Pz III & IV models in competitions have way too much sag).
Checking tracks: Absolutely. After a while Germany switched to the "Soviet style" of track pins. Simple stick with a head on one end and a "ramp" on the chassis side that pushes the pins back into the track, pin-head on the inside and nothing but a plain rod on the outside. Before they adapted this invention they had tracks with a nut and cotter pin and at every stop the co-driver had to check the nuts and pins to check that all pins were intact (no pin -> loose nut -> lost nut -> loose pin -> pin drops out and/or hits the chassis side and then you have big problems).
Bad sentences garbled communication: Yes, I was in a hurry. Sorry.
On the other hand: By 'Doing it for real' I meant assembling a real 1:1 track. They could just possibly have been removing a link to shorten the track for adjustment reasons. The probable purpose of those two images were probably as part of an instruction about how to mount the tracks. Maybe at a rail head when replacing transportation tracks.
I met an ex armour officer who told us about when they replaced worn out tracks on a Centurion. When they were finished the tank commander realised that the crew (conscripts) had gotten the tracks mixed up so that they now had one new track on the left side and the old left side track had ended up on the right side instead.
Count to ten and then yell at them to do it again and do it right this time.
/ Robin
Beobachtungsbereich
Joined: August 26, 2012
KitMaker: 19 posts
Armorama: 19 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 02:58 PM UTC
Also, tracks stretch over time and shoes have to be taken out in order to keep proper track tension. If it gets too loose, the tank will pop track or throw it completely.
Regards
Regards
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.