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TF 1-64 Bradleys and Mine Plows
B2Blain
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 12:51 AM UTC
I need a little confirmation so I can apply the correct BN IDs for Bradleys in TF 1-64.

TF 1-64 had IDs in the 50 series. A Company (1-64 Armor) - 51, C Company (1-64 Armor) -53, and C Company (3-15 Infantry) - 53.

I believe typically armor and mechanized infantry fight as organic companies. Does anyone know if any Bradley platoons from Charlie Rock were assigned to either tank company? I haven't come a cross references to this occurring. So I assume it is safe to use 53 as BN IDs on Bradleys.

Also, in Robert Burik's book he indicates the four tanks power company were typically equipped with mine plows. Echelon's sheets covering A and C Company only includes decals for one Abrams carrying a mine plow - "Answer to This." I have seen another one mounted on an A Company, 1st Platoon tank. But that's about it.

Did Abrams equipped with mine plows keep them through the march into Baghdad?

Thanks!
Removed by original poster on 09/28/17 - 20:43:00 (GMT).
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 01:33 AM UTC
C Co 3-15 IN Bradleys kept the 3-15 IN Bn ID of 43. They also had R bumper numbers since there was already a C Co in 1-64.

Additionally, there are usually 1 plow tank and 1 roller tank per tank company.

B2Blain
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 02:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

C Co 3-15 IN Bradleys kept the 3-15 IN Bn ID of 43. They also had R bumper numbers since there was already a C Co in 1-64.

Additionally, there are usually 1 plow tank and 1 roller tank per tank company.




Thanks for the info Gino.

In Robert Burik's book there a Bradley named - "Crackshot" with a 53 ID. Is this perhaps an M-7A2 and not a M-2A2? I was going to use those decals from the Academy kit.

Regarding the mine plow issue. Were they removed once the 3rd ID penetrated into the interior of Iraq?
B2Blain
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 02:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

C Co 3-15 IN Bradleys kept the 3-15 IN Bn ID of 43. They also had R bumper numbers since there was already a C Co in 1-64.

Additionally, there are usually 1 plow tank and 1 roller tank per tank company.




Thanks for the info Gino.

In Robert Burik's book there a Bradley named - "Crackshot" with a 53 ID. Is this perhaps an M-7A2 and not a M-2A2? I was going to use those decals from the Academy kit.

Regarding the mine plow issue. Were they removed once the 3rd ID penetrated into the interior of Iraq?



BTW - I did find your discussion on Missing Lynx with regard to Crackshot. I am reading Conroy's book now and just go to the part where they are outside of Najaf. He hasn't mentioned Bradleys task organized to his company. Maybe A Company? Or did they go back to Charlie Rock at some point.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 03:37 AM UTC
Crackshot was an M7A2 B-FIST from, I believe, C 1-64 AR, it was not a standard, Infantry Fighting Vehicle Bradley.

This is the info I have on 1-64 AR and 3-15 IN task organized.

For the first Thunder Run (5 Apr 03), only TF 1-64 took part task organized as below:

A Co 1-64 AR
C Co 1-64 AR
C Co 3-15 IN

A Co 1-64 and C Co 3-15 task organized a platoon (4 vehicles) of tanks and Bradleys.

A Co 1-64 AR
1 Plt A Co 1-64 AR
2 Plt A Co 1-64 AR
2 Plt C Co 3-15 IN

The Bradleys had 43> (V pointing right) as their Bn ID number.

Right front and rear markings were R 21,22,23,24 since C was used by C/1-64 AR

Left front and rear were TF 1-64^ (^= triangle for AR)


The 2nd Thunder Run (7 Apr 03) incorporated all of 2d BDE.

TF 1-64 AR and TF 4-64 AR went into Baghdad and TF 3-15 IN looked after the route up Highway 8 at the intersections known as Moe, Larry and Curly.

TF 4-64 AR had Bradleys of A Co from 3-7 IN, their BN ID numbers were 21.

The 4 Bradleys with A Co 1-64 AR were from 2 Plt / C Co / 3-15 IN, their 'bumper 'numbers were R 21, R 22, R 23, R 24 and they had 43 on the sides with a V pointing to the right, they also had TF 1-64^ on them.

I believe the plows and rollers were removed once we reached Baghdad.

B2Blain
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 04:29 AM UTC
Thanks again, Gino, for the info.

I thought it was strange that Crackshot didn't have a lot of gear handing off of it. Either it was an HQ M-2A2 - or something else.
Burik
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 04:44 AM UTC
In the time that has passed since writing the book some more things have come to light. I did research on 1-64's thunder run for our museum display and now know the exact make-up of the task force that day. That includes the plow tanks . What exactly are you interested to know about the plows?

Like the tanks, many Bradleys had pre-invasion markings still on them when the war started - just before the war a new marking system was derived and you will see many tanks with both marking systems side by side. Many Bradleys in C/3-5 had hastily spray painted white chevrons pointed left on the rear of the vehicle, and some had their CIPs with the same white chevron. There would also be dots inside the chevron denoting the platoon.

There were only plows and no rollers for 1-64. Both A Co and C Co had them. The idea usually was for the plows to lead the companies as they marched. A tank or two dropped their plows during the invasion for mechanical reasons, but the plows themselves were then picked up by another platoon mate typcially. Plows were used in the thunder runs and one incident with them is famously described in the Zucchino book. You will see roller attachments on many tanks throughout 3rd ID but no rollers were used; just plows. No roller attachments on 1-64 tanks though.

B2Blain
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 01:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

In the time that has passed since writing the book some more things have come to light. I did research on 1-64's thunder run for our museum display and now know the exact make-up of the task force that day. That includes the plow tanks . What exactly are you interested to know about the plows?

Like the tanks, many Bradleys had pre-invasion markings still on them when the war started - just before the war a new marking system was derived and you will see many tanks with both marking systems side by side. Many Bradleys in C/3-5 had hastily spray painted white chevrons pointed left on the rear of the vehicle, and some had their CIPs with the same white chevron. There would also be dots inside the chevron denoting the platoon.

There were only plows and no rollers for 1-64. Both A Co and C Co had them. The idea usually was for the plows to lead the companies as they marched. A tank or two dropped their plows during the invasion for mechanical reasons, but the plows themselves were then picked up by another platoon mate typcially. Plows were used in the thunder runs and one incident with them is famously described in the Zucchino book. You will see roller attachments on many tanks throughout 3rd ID but no rollers were used; just plows. No roller attachments on 1-64 tanks though.




Thank you, Robert. I am mainly interested in TF 1-64. I have a Bradley and Abrams with a mine plow that I am working on now and will add another Abrams at some point to pair it with the other Abrams. The Bradley will be from Charlie Rock. I'd like to do a diorama at some point but haven't decided on the subject. Maybe the drive south to Mahmudiya down Highway 8, finishing the destruction of the Medina Division from the rear?

I am going to use Echelon's sheet for A or C Company. There is only one tank in the sheet that carried a mine plow - Answer to this. Do you know if other Abrams in either of those companies carried plows which are on those sheets? I am wondering if I might have to take a little artistic license and put the plow on another tank.

I am sorry I missed out on your Thunder Run book. Have you thought of an update or something more comprehensive? Maybe with a modelers focus - concentrating on equipment? I have read a lot of what is out there - Zucchino's book, Take Down, On Point. I am reading Heavy Metal right now. It might be a good time for an update.
Burik
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 09:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Thank you, Robert. I am mainly interested in TF 1-64. I have a Bradley and Abrams with a mine plow that I am working on now and will add another Abrams at some point to pair it with the other Abrams. The Bradley will be from Charlie Rock. I'd like to do a diorama at some point but haven't decided on the subject. Maybe the drive south to Mahmudiya down Highway 8, finishing the destruction of the Medina Division from the rear?

I am going to use Echelon's sheet for A or C Company. There is only one tank in the sheet that carried a mine plow - Answer to this. Do you know if other Abrams in either of those companies carried plows which are on those sheets? I am wondering if I might have to take a little artistic license and put the plow on another tank.

I am sorry I missed out on your Thunder Run book. Have you thought of an update or something more comprehensive? Maybe with a modelers focus - concentrating on equipment? I have read a lot of what is out there - Zucchino's book, Take Down, On Point. I am reading Heavy Metal right now. It might be a good time for an update.



A Co had two tanks with plows.
A11 Answer To This. During the April 5 TR it was the first tank in the column and drove over(and left the ground) the jersey barrier the enemy tried to use to block the road.
A12 Apocalypse

C Co also had two tanks with plows.
C32 (no name). QTA 024
C33 Call To Arms. Unknown QTA.

I have always wanted to update the book with the knowledge I gained during the intervening years but Concord had no interest and now they don't publish anymore.

Don't hesitate to ask any questions on OIF. There are good sources here as there are several vets from OIF1 and onwards.

Bob
B2Blain
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 - 01:52 AM UTC
Bob,
That helps quite a bit. It gives me some options.

It's a shame that there isn't a venue to memorialize the information you have. I am wondering whether there might be the opportunity for an ebook at some point.

At some point it would be nice for the Army to release AARs from the 3rd ID. I found this one pretty interesting. After reading the accounts of Abrams' crews engaging irregular troops with M-2s and M240s I thought it would have been a good idea to install an M-240 for the Bradley vehicle commander. Too bad they didn't eventually implement it even though it was recommended in one of the AARs.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xoFvyhAbe94J:www.blackfive.net/main/2003/09/after_action_re.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
Burik
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Posted: Monday, October 02, 2017 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text



It's a shame that there isn't a venue to memorialize the information you have. I am wondering whether there might be the opportunity for an ebook at some point.

At some point it would be nice for the Army to release AARs from the 3rd ID. I found this one pretty interesting. After reading the accounts of Abrams' crews engaging irregular troops with M-2s and M240s I thought it would have been a good idea to install an M-240 for the Bradley vehicle commander. Too bad they didn't eventually implement it even though it was recommended in one of the AARs.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xoFvyhAbe94J:www.blackfive.net/main/2003/09/after_action_re.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari



The museum has my information - for future generations!

That AAR is from Cpt Burris and his Bradley is in our display. One interesting detail of his Brad is that one of the side racks was struck by an enemy technical earlier in the war, and was all bent up.

B2Blain
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Posted: Monday, October 09, 2017 - 11:47 PM UTC
Sorry, more Bradley and Abrams questions.

1. Which side rack for the 3-15 INF Bradleys should I get? Eduard's or Real Model? Real Model has extra gear - but is one more accurate than another and is one easier to construct?

2. I tried to simulate wear on the rubber pads on my Abrams's tracks. I am not satisfied with the result. Did 1-64 or 4-64 Arm have a lot of wear? They were in the desert for almost a year with tracks they pulled from prepo stocks but its hard to tell from the pics. If the 2nd Bde Abrams did have wear was it more of a pit or a gouge. Consistent or random?

3. What level of chipping did the Bradley and Abrams of 2nd Bde have?

Thanks!
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


1. Which side rack for the 3-15 INF Bradleys should I get? Eduard's or Real Model? Real Model has extra gear - but is one more accurate than another and is one easier to construct?



The PE is the same in both sets. Real Model uses Eduard as their PE supplier.

The track pads and vehicles were pretty worn and beat up. It is best to look at pics and model what you see.
Burik
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Posted: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 03:56 AM UTC
Yes, lots of track pad wear.

There is some chipping, but not a lot. Around areas with heavy use like hatch rings and the edges of the skirts, but of course dust would cover them a bit too, so photos do not tend to show them unless they are close.
B2Blain
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Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 04:03 AM UTC
Thanks Gino and Bob!

There is not a lot of pics out these of the track pads. In Bob's Thunder Run book the pads seem pretty good. But I found a pic of a heavily worn track in lessons learned slide deck that focused on the Abrams. The wear seems to be mainly on the edges of the pads - more than the middle.

https://www.scribd.com/document/224824741/abrams-oif-pdf





B2Blain
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Posted: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 02:36 PM UTC
Does anyone know how the mine plow was connected on the M-1A1 AIM models during the initial invasion? Was the control cable connected through the driver's vision block or the attachment found found in latter models?

Thanks!
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