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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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Vietnam / China split
b2nhvi
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 12:31 PM UTC
I'm working on BJ 212. Production started in 65. When did Vietnam and China "unfriend " each other ? Would the NVA have gotten any BJ 212s before the rift? Also, anybody have a couple NVA national markings and a NVA flag in the spare parts bin?
Karl187
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 03:30 PM UTC
Despite all that communist co-operation propaganda that always made the Vietnamese and Chinese look like best buddies it was never really that way. Yes the Chinese helped them out in Vietnam, although not always in the way the NVA actually wanted. Most of the equipment the NVA wanted came from Russia who they remained on much better terms with, as well as several other Warsaw Pact nations in Eastern Europe. Their relations with the Chinese were more fractious beneath the veneer of co-operation.

They kind of let things slide post 1975 because the Chinese began growing closer to the US and were becoming more defiant of the USSR- and the USSR always valued their Vietnamese contacts more. The real break-down of relations bubbled to the surface over Cambodia- the Chinese were supportive of the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot whereas Vietnam and the USSR were not. Border clashes between the NVA and Khmer Rouge, plus some backroom dealing between Communists in Cambodia who didn't agree with the Khmer Rouge, led to Vietnam invading in 1979. That really annoyed the Chinese who in turn invaded Vietnam.

But it wasn't quite the cakewalk the vastly superior (in numbers and equipment) PLA forces expected. They really suffered- a 'bloody nose' is what they got basically. They could have thrown down and shoved a lot more PLA forces into the war but for various reasons decided not to. They never forgot the shame of the defeat and their relations with Vietnam never recovered. They are still frosty even today, mostly over border issues and various territory disputes at sea.

Sorry if I was a bit long winded! But I'd say the NVA definetly had some BJ 212's knocking around so I say go for it and best of luck with the build!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 03:44 PM UTC
Nice summary!
Not long winded at all. It would be difficult o get all that mess into a shorter text
b2nhvi
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 03:59 PM UTC
I knew things got heated after the invasion of cambodia. I knew the Sino / Soviet fall out was in the "60s". I was not sure if China cut off Vietnam for it's leanings towards Russia was before the BJ 212 would have been around in big enough numbers to be "aid". I know the NVA used UAZs.
Johnathan123
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 04:28 PM UTC
Sorry, had to Google what a BJ 212 was now I want to make one. Just a suggestion, I make my own flags out of cloth that are pretty easy to make and realistic. If you have a Hobby Lobby or fabric store all you need is some scrap muslin fabric (antique white color) and a special backing (can not remember the name of it but it is in the fabric section). You can get flag image off the net and just print it out off any normal printer and instant flag. You can weather them any way you like because it is a real flag. I think I spent around $20 and have material for a lifetime. When you build the kit please post.
Frenchy
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Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 - 04:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I know the NVA used UAZs.



They also used Chinese-built Jiefang CA-30 cargo trucks ...



East-German IFA W50 trucks....And Chinese BJ-212's (1975 picture)




H.P.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 07:59 AM UTC
Nothing fancy. OOB. Actually got kit for the 107mm rocket launcher for another project. Base paint is AK Interactive PLA Dark Green.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 08:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I know the NVA used UAZs.



They also used Chinese-built Jiefang CA-30 cargo trucks ...



East-German IFA W50 trucks....And Chinese BJ-212's (1975 picture)




H.P.



virtually every rifle, machine gun, grenade, truck, and most tanks were Chinese. There were a few Russian items in the mix. They used a bunch of CA-30 trucks painted in a grey color. The Russians supplied high tech weapons like SAM's and radar guided AA guns. Where they got their MIG's from I don't know.

We captured weapons from allover the place. Even France, Germany, and Great Britain. I remember once finding an underground bunker full of U.S. made Penicillin (Lilley), and things U.S. and West German. The real insult was when we captured food and medicine supplied by several U.S. Universities and the AFLCIO and the UAW unions. There were many photographs of this taken by MACV Intelligence. Wonder if Ken Burns will talk about that? Or Hill 235?

gary
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 08:44 AM UTC
"virtually every rifle, machine gun, grenade, truck, and most tanks were Chinese." Small arms were anything they could get from China and the Soviets. Germany armed China in the 30s. Thousands of Mausers , MP-40s were inherited by the Communists. Soviet had tons of captured German stuff too. Lots were sent to Vietnam. Lots of captured Japanese stuff. M-1 carbines (French and ARVN ), M=1 Garands. Tanks, they had type 62s, 59s, RUSSIAN PT-76s. "MIGs" were a mix of Soviet and Chinese. China cut Vietnam off in the mid 60s because the Russians and Chinese had a major rift and Vietnam sided with Russia. "You like the Russians? screw you! We aren't helping you anymore!" So unless Vietnam never got more supplies from about 1966 on, yeah, they had Russian stuff.
Wingtsun
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 09:07 AM UTC
Tim
To paraphrase Palmerston's famous quote: Countries do not have eternal friends, just eternal interests.

The Sino Vietnam war did not just end after those 30 days of conflict in 1979. Hostilities continued for about a decade along the border.

I recommend the book Deng Xiaoping's Long War by Professor Xiaoming Zhang. The book is heavy on the political background rather than on the actual battlefield events. It is written from the PRC perspective but he does cite PAVN unit histories to corroborate some details and info. In my opinion Zhang did a very good job of drawing the BIG picture and highlighting all the small background diplomatic details.

https://www.amazon.com/Deng-Xiaopings-Long-War-1979-1991/dp/1469642344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506830130&sr=8-1&keywords=deng+xiaoping+long+war

Here is a Youtube clip of Dr Zhang's lecture about his book just over a hour long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n95Gskrhbw8



babaoriley
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 09:09 AM UTC
"But it wasn't quite the cakewalk the vastly superior (in numbers and equipment) PLA forces expected. They really suffered- a 'bloody nose' is what they got basically. They could have thrown down and shoved a lot more PLA forces into the war but for various reasons decided not to. They never forgot the shame of the defeat and their relations with Vietnam never recovered. They are still frosty even today, mostly over border issues and various territory disputes at sea."

Well, that's one interpretation. However another way to look at it is that China moved as far into Vietnam as it wanted to, made it clear it could have kept rolling towards Hanoi if it had chosen to, and then withdrew when everyone had taken their point. The war wasn't about Cambodia anyway, it was China's way of showing that nations in the region relying on the Soviet Union for protection were making a bad bet. The Soviets rattled their saber--I remember a newspaper headline in huge type reading "Russia Mobilizes"--and provided Vietnam with replacement military hardware but they didn't risk a direct confrontation with China. China takes a longer view of these issues than the U.S. which tends to have a short attention span. If you look at the relationship between China and Vietnam today, it's hard to conclude that China didn't get most of what it wanted from its demonstration of force in 1979.
babaoriley
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 09:34 AM UTC
"We captured weapons from allover the place. Even France, Germany, and Great Britain. I remember once finding an underground bunker full of U.S. made Penicillin (Lilley), and things U.S. and West German. The real insult was when we captured food and medicine supplied by several U.S. Universities and the AFLCIO and the UAW unions. There were many photographs of this taken by MACV Intelligence. Wonder if Ken Burns will talk about that? Or Hill 235?"

The UAW was opposed to the war in Vietnam (which is not to say all its members felt that way). However the AFL-CIO officially supported the U.S. military effort in Vietnam although not all its members and leadership agreed with that position. It would be interesting to see any credible evidence that the AFL-CIO provided any aid to North Vietnam in that conflict. The odds that a staunch anti-communist like George Meany would have allowed the AFL-CIO to provide material aid to North Vietnam are vanishingly small.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 09:46 AM UTC
AFL IO stuff was probably intended for the South. Thefts at the docks was rampant.
babaoriley
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 10:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

AFL IO stuff was probably intended for the South. Thefts at the docks was rampant.


There was a U.S. program to plant sabotaged ammunition in the North Vietnamese supply chain so NVA and Viet Cong troops would be demoralized by the resulting deaths and injuries and stop trusting their own weapons and ammo, in particular ammunition supplied by China. One story goes that the plan was abandoned in part because of casualties in U.S./ARVN forces who picked up and used captured weapons loaded with the sabotaged ammo.

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/project-eldest-son.108423/

As you point out, there were a lot of ways supplies of various origins could reach North Vietnam. American-made supplies could have gone through several nations before turning up in the north--some western governments or organizations sympathized with North Vietnam for various reasons. However given that organization's support for the U.S. effort in Vietnam I think any claim that the AFL-CIO knowingly sent supplies to North Vietnam would need to be backed up with some solid evidence.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 11:22 AM UTC
I'd read that Special forces types planted sabotaged ammo / weapons into caches of weapons .... ammo with plastic explosive instead of powder, et. As for union stuff in the North's hands,,,, I'd think it was sent to various programs in the South and stolen off the docks in Saigon and the likes. Ironic .... Like the Vietnam issue itself this took on a life of it's own. My original query was was whether the end of Chinese supplies to North Vietnam ended before the BJ 212 began production. Next thing we are up to events 10 years later.
TerancekW
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 12:39 PM UTC
In 1961 Beijing Auto Works designed the BJ 210. The engine is a carbon copy of GAZ M21.

In 1963 Beijing Auto Works designed the BJ 212. The production run BJ 212 began in 1966. The BJ 212 engine was an improvement of TJ 210 engine (BJ 210 renamed as TJ 210 while the car production pass to Tianjin Auto Works).

As Mao Zedongs inspection car, The BJ 212 made its public appearance at Tian'anmen in 1966.
Karl187
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Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 03:04 PM UTC
Thanks Robin, for your kind comment .


Quoted Text

"But it wasn't quite the cakewalk the vastly superior (in numbers and equipment) PLA forces expected. They really suffered- a 'bloody nose' is what they got basically. They could have thrown down and shoved a lot more PLA forces into the war but for various reasons decided not to. They never forgot the shame of the defeat and their relations with Vietnam never recovered. They are still frosty even today, mostly over border issues and various territory disputes at sea."

Well, that's one interpretation. However another way to look at it is that China moved as far into Vietnam as it wanted to, made it clear it could have kept rolling towards Hanoi if it had chosen to, and then withdrew when everyone had taken their point. The war wasn't about Cambodia anyway, it was China's way of showing that nations in the region relying on the Soviet Union for protection were making a bad bet. The Soviets rattled their saber--I remember a newspaper headline in huge type reading "Russia Mobilizes"--and provided Vietnam with replacement military hardware but they didn't risk a direct confrontation with China. China takes a longer view of these issues than the U.S. which tends to have a short attention span. If you look at the relationship between China and Vietnam today, it's hard to conclude that China didn't get most of what it wanted from its demonstration of force in 1979.



Yeah, I've read interpretations to that extent too- depends on where and what you read on it. I've even read a Chinese General's account who was quite un-happy with their poor showing- the PLA used the experience to really start modernizing their thinking and their equipment- this was really the shot in the arm their modernization programs needed. The Gulf War then jolted them even further when they saw what Western forces were capable of but their modernization programs originate with their performance in Vietnam.

Personally I have no doubt they could have mobilized and steamrollered Vietnam in a conventional war but they knew it would cost them dearly plus they would have a likely very costly occupation to consider. Based on their relationship today, as you mentioned, yes they did get what they want and proved a point a few times over border clashes but they certainly didn't win the Vietnamese over- as I said they are still fairly frosty with each other- particularly over territorial claims at sea.

Sorry for going a bit more off-topic- as you have discovered Timothy, a lot of people find this particular area very interesting. The BJ212 is looking very good I must say- just the right amount of dirt and wear- I particularly like the tarp which looks suitably weathered.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 01:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

AFL IO stuff was probably intended for the South. Thefts at the docks was rampant.



WRONG! Bags of rice had writing on them telling who it was intended for and where it came from. Even boxes were labeled like that. U.S. supplied rice was from a third party in a totally different bag. Most medicine came as shipped from the OEM. Much was traced to European Countries, but not always.

We killed East German, Bulgarian, Czechoslovakian, and Chinese advisors, but no Russians along the Lao border. The first thing you noticed about the advisors (not Chinese) was the weapons they carried. Most were CZ and BRUNO, and very few Russian made weapons. Most Chinese guys used Type 59 (or Type 56 AK47's).

Main Force VC used a lot of M1 & M2 Carbines they picked up here and there. Yet many also used MAS 36 rifles as well. many used the AK47, but quite a few used the SKS as well. Most SKS rifles came out of Germany and Hungary. NVA used mostly Chinese stuff due to logistics alone.

I saw the first PT76 tanks in country in Lang Vie (A101), but they were too scorched to tell where they came from. Trucks were often smashed to bits, but did see some rolling along dodging 105 rounds all around.
glt
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 01:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

AFL IO stuff was probably intended for the South. Thefts at the docks was rampant.


There was a U.S. program to plant sabotaged ammunition in the North Vietnamese supply chain so NVA and Viet Cong troops would be demoralized by the resulting deaths and injuries and stop trusting their own weapons and ammo, in particular ammunition supplied by China. One story goes that the plan was abandoned in part because of casualties in U.S./ARVN forces who picked up and used captured weapons loaded with the sabotaged ammo.

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/project-eldest-son.108423/

As you point out, there were a lot of ways supplies of various origins could reach North Vietnam. American-made supplies could have gone through several nations before turning up in the north--some western governments or organizations sympathized with North Vietnam for various reasons. However given that organization's support for the U.S. effort in Vietnam I think any claim that the AFL-CIO knowingly sent supplies to North Vietnam would need to be backed up with some solid evidence.



To the best of my knowledge SF were the only ones seriously doing this, and even then it was small scale. They'd pull bullets from cases, and put a wad of C4 in with the powder. Then load about two rounds in a magazine. Leave the magazine on the ground and move on. They also changed fuses on grenades with smoke grenade fuses. Never saw any ready made stuff anywhere. Even then it was less than twenty grenades and a couple hundred rounds of 7.62x39 ammo. SOG never did any of this, and Phoenix had bigger fish to fry.
glt
babaoriley
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Posted: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 - 12:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To the best of my knowledge SF were the only ones seriously doing this, and even then it was small scale. They'd pull bullets from cases, and put a wad of C4 in with the powder. Then load about two rounds in a magazine. Leave the magazine on the ground and move on. They also changed fuses on grenades with smoke grenade fuses. Never saw any ready made stuff anywhere. Even then it was less than twenty grenades and a couple hundred rounds of 7.62x39 ammo. SOG never did any of this, and Phoenix had bigger fish to fry.
glt



It makes sense that there could have been local, unofficial efforts along similar lines. However the article I linked to goes into considerable detail about SOG's involvement including the name of the "Q" who perfected the sabotaged ammo design and where it was made, quantities deployed etc.
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