according to the seller its a "Nicely built and painted 1/35 Panzer IV w/side skirts and turret armor." currently going for $16, what do you guys think?

Here is the photo:


Rgds,
Pawel

in my opinion a lot of the kits advertised on ebay as pro built arent,some are down right nasty looking.for $16 you could buy and build the kit your self....not trying to get any arguements going thats just my 2 cents thx larry

I second Warhogs opinion. I haven't seen a ready built model on Ebay that I would have. But then I'd alway choose to build my own.

It reminds me of a guy who often sells his built models on Polish online auction site. He calls himself: "professional modeler-hobbyist"

Somehow the guy does not see the inconsistensy between words "professional" and "hobbyist" :-)

His models are average at best.

Rgds,
Pawel

Hi ave,
I'd probably have to third the motion. I've seen some well built models, but I've seen some that were "professionaly built", that honestly, if they were, then I'm an expert. And believe me my modelling skills are nothing to write home about.
Regards,
Joe

I have to agree, there may be some nice models out there but its a big chance. But after all isnt the fun part about modeling building the model? Cheers Kevin

I have no problem with people selling built ups to others who want a particuar item, whether by auction, direct sale when someone like a project (been there, done that) or by commission. The buyer knows (or should) what he/she's getting if there's a picture. If they are foolis enough to over bid on a biece of crap build, it's their money. If a bulider, as one of my club members want to cleanout his old models or do quick figure builds to support new purchases, that's to his benefit as well.
The only concern I have about selling built ups, especially well made ones, is having them show up opn th contest circuit as the purtchaser's work. (Yes, we've had to deal with that and it really sucks!)

I have to agree with what I have read up to this point. I have seen some where it looks as the person opened the box and 2 hours later it is professionally built. They look more like something you use for target practice. I have only seen 1 kit that would be good enough to show up on OUR honorable websites that we go to and admire other peoples work. Just ebay is not on that list mind you.

I agree with Al here too! It made me smile - e-Bay gives prime example of the phrase "a fool and his money is soon parted". I guess, naively, that if no one bought this "stuff" then there might now be any "stuff" to make fun of here, huh?

I'm ashamed to admit it, but a lot a times I go looking for these "pro builts" for the amusement factor. In another thread members are commenting about the quality of forums around the 'Net. Man, for me, it seems like things got bland and depressing like attending a funeral when this year began. Some want less "fluff" - but sometimes that keeps me optimistic. These e-Bay "pro builts" make me chuckle sometimes...

The other problem Al hit upon though (purchased models appearing on contest tables) does bite hard. I don't understand the mentality behind that desire, probably never will. It's like running into guys who buy models and then resell them - passing them off as their original works. Encountered that before too - and that's an even weirder feeling...

Gunnie

Amazing, there are lowlifes who try this? How is it found out/discovered/dealt with?

Hi Guys-

Just to add my 2 cents to this thread....

I have a hard time accepting the fact that any of the built up kits on Ebay are worth the money the seller wants. By that I mean, they are not usually well done..... (just my opinion).

I would have a hard time selling any of my "good" kits, at least the ones I am proud of. This leads me to believe that the seller is dumping older stuff to see what it will bring. More power to em, but I will not buy a model that I could do better myself. That is the fun part anyway.

Later-
Jeff

Hmmm,

As most of you 'oldies' on the site know. This isn't the first time this subject has come up.
But I must admit, it is one, that as a modeler, make's you stop a sec, and think.
There is a multitude of directions your thoughts could take you. But the basic 'touchstone' that has to be used, before anyone's opinion on the matter is considered is; the 'seller's' motivation. And, the 'buyer's' motivation.
In this case,as in most of the others (especially at the rather cheap prices charged), the 'seller's' motivation is to simply make a quick buck off of a hastily assembled/painted model kit. The 'buyer's' motivation is to hopefully pick up an inexpensive example of something they happen to find interesting and don't have the inclination or talent to produce themselves. The dollar value that this 'interchange' happens at ensures the 'Big Lot's' flavour of the whole thing.
To illustrate. Take the example of the sales of the 'pre-painted' model kits coming onto the market. It all becomes a case of 'immediacy'. Some yuppie (and I know quite a few), who has no interest in investing the time, but want's to adorn himself in the accolade's (however artificial) of heroic history, will simply reach into his wallet and purchase his appreciation of the event.
One important thing to remember when the word 'professional' is applied to anything, and that is the definition of 'professional' simply means that you are paid for your work.
No indication or suggestion of quality is inferred.

Tread.

Hi TreadHead,
Not to split hairs, but I think professional infers more than just being paid for what you do.
It usually means someone who makes their living by doing what they do, or a certain degree of skill and competence.
I've no problem with people selling their work or others who buy. I think that some of these people who describe their work as professional are misleading those who buy.
I think we all know of instances when things on E-bay were not exactly what we were led to believe.
Regards,
Joe

One of the guys in (hate to say this) my club has done this. I advised the judges at the last contest where he entered a promo and they opted to leave it in competition. Where I belived a kit was a bought built up, I again advised the judges. Unfortunately, I didn't have the original builder's word, just second hand information, so I had only hearsay. Where possible, I've refused to consider this slug's work in judging.He is currently on probabation as far as I'm concerned, but some of the kinder people in the group consider him to be litterally borderline personality disorder and don;t want ot push him over the edge.

He buys kits instead of building them -
the defense rests

No problem Joe, I fully support your ability to disagree.

I will leave you with this;

The American Heritage School Dictionary

professional [pro fesh' e nel] adj Of or for a profession: professional training. . Engaged in or trained for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people
Doing a specified kind of work for a living or as a career: a professional writer Performed by or consisting of persons receiving pay; not amateur: professional football. --n.

The New Lexicon Webster's Encyclopedia

professional adj. of or relating to a profession. a thoroughly professional novel
Engaging in some activity as a remunerated occupation, a professional football player.
Following some line of conduct as if it were one's profession, a professional agitator. someone who engages in an activity, esp. a sport, to earn money][ someone engaged in one of the learned or salaried professions.

Same Book as above:

craftsman n A skilled worker practicing a paricular craft. ][ an artist within his profession with respect to the technical side of his art.

The New Century Dictionary.

craftsman n A person who , also, practices skill; ingenuity; dexterity; specif., skill or art. ][ also, a member of a trade or profession collectively; a gild. One who practices a craft; an artisan. The performance or skill of a craftsman -- Possessing or displaying craft; skillful (archaic).

I will agree with you that the earliest definition of the word 'professional', which in ancient times originally applied only to "professionally" held social positions such as Doctors, Lawyers, Architect's, Engineers, etc. indicated an elevated sense of learned application of the principle's studied by these "professionals". But, just as in the use of the word 'Esquire', the original definition of the word has 'diluted' over the centuries.
By definition I would be considered a "professional" (I am an Architect), but I have little faith in the word, so I do not use it. To me it's kind of like the use of the word 'leader'. In the military, officer's are supposed to be 'leaders', just because their officers. Believe me, this does not make them leaders.

Tread.

ok, here we go.

Hi, my name is Jacques and I am guilty of selling built kits on eBay.

Seriously, it helps me to keep my skills up as people pay more for different details than people give out awards for at a model contest.

Here is a link to an example of a kit I sold on eBay that sold very well:

http://saammodels.tripod.com/Pictures/otherbuild/m60a1/index.htm

and a couple of figs
http://saammodels.tripod.com/Pictures/otherbuild/ssardennes/index.htm
http://saammodels.tripod.com/Pictures/otherbuild/sskarkov/index.htm

Here is the page will all the stuff I have done for others:
http://saammodels.tripod.com/Pictures/otherbuild/index.htm

Now, as stated, much is based on what is the intent of the seller and the buyer. Most of the people I have sold to are serious collectors. They have no interest in reselling my kits nor do they compete in hobby shows. I also build for them on a commision basis. I look at Ebay as a advertising service for serious buyers, not a way to make a fast buck at someone's expense. And usually, things sold on ebay go for less than expected...if the selling cost covers all the fees and the cost of the kit/paint/glue, I am happy.

However, a recent trend is for the pre-built kits (like Tamiya) and people who try to capitalze off of others who want a pre-built kit. There are some on Ebay who sell VERY nice kits for a hefty price, and those who see this and try to foist off a cheap copy . Noone selling a crappy kit ever seems to get much though...

finally, I have sold one kit on ebay that ended up being resold on ebay a month later...and for more $$$. oh wel...

My 2 cents. I have seen some really nice stuff usually a resin kit that the guy wants a fortune for, some nice average work that usually goes for more than the cost at full retail of the kit, and some work that goes for pretty cheap that woud require a lot of work to bring up to my standard. If you are looking to build a collection up and just don't have the time or the desire to build everything you want for it, it might be the way to go. I think the age old saying You get what you pay for holds up here.

Hi Treadhead,
Guess my dictionary is quite old. It sort of agreed with the statement I made about making a living at a particular activity.
I got to thinking I jumped the gun at bit. ave did say it it was "nicely built". There wasn't any mention of professionally built.
Thanks for your understanding and patience. You know what they say. Ignorance is bliss, so I am one of the happiest people around.
Regards,
Joe

Howdy Joe,

No worries mate. Your balanced viewpoint is just fine, as is your patience with the gentle back and forth 'banter'. :-)
But, I feel the need to expand on my post to address our good member Jacques input. His statements bring up something that needs to be clarified.

O.K., simply selling your work, is not what I'm talking about. Most of us that do 'commission' work are, in fact, "selling" their work. Nothing wrong with that. My father used to do it very successfully many moons ago. In fact the diorama he sold depicting Napolean's retreat from Moscow made him almost $10,000.00. And this was in the sixties!
Anyway. The act of a modeling artisan creating a miniature, or a dio, and then selling his work to a 'collector'. Is akin to an accomplished artist who paints a picture and sells his work in a Gallery. The only creative balance that needs to be maintained is that the contributing artist truly needs to be remunerated for his unique efforts!
I certainly haven't been cruising Ebay for awhile, but to extend the analogy. The work (meaning the "professionally" built models), that were selling then, would be comparative (using the'picture artist' example) to 'artist's' that sell their work at the local Howard Johnson's " Artists Sidewalk Sale!". In a nutshell, they look great from a couple of feet away.

My only thought at this point Jacques.....is that you're underselling yourself!!!
I've seen your work, and it is fantastic!!
But...if it serves you in some way that is advantageous to yourself....you need not explain it at all!

Tread.

Heck....if Gunnie would decide to sell some of his stuff, I'd consider buying it just to be able to visually 'consume' it a bit! :-) :-)

Following the AA Meeting standards….

Hi My name is John, (wait for the “Hi John”) and I have sold dioramas and models on EBAY. And if anyone is interested my Cover –Up entry will be going on line soon.

EBAY is how I got back into modeling after 20+ years. I must agree, there is some real garbage selling as “PROFESSIONALLY BUILT”. The thing I find most amazing is the junk that brings in HIGH prices and the quality stuff that sits or goes for pennies… AH, the buying public in finicky…

And since I have done commission work I add the PRO Built by line. Frankly it is an advertising gimmick – what can you do to make them take a look! (Sorry guys I teach now, but I spent 23 years in Retail Sales & Marketing Consulting).

So does that make me a fallen modeler…? I fear I have gone to far down the road to the dark side to repent….

John
www.johnneill.com

Guys, I see absolutely nothing wrong with buying or selling built display kits. It is your money or model to do with what you will. I agree that "pro built" is a gray area and does not necessarily mean well or expertly built. As John states, it's just a marketing gimmick.

What I find wrong (and deplorable) is people buying real well built kits or diecast display models and trying to pass them off in contests as their own. This is a hobby done for enjoyment. Competing with someone like that is like playing golf or bowling with someone who cheats on scoring. That takes the fun out of participating.

I agree with what everybody is saying, I think that its perfectly fine for people to sell and for people to buy completed kits. Like some said, some people may be collectors or simply dont have time/skill/patience to built a kit themselves. I also agree that people who claim others work for their own are simply wrong and I have never heard an argument to justify it.

Sean

"Hi, my name is Rick and I have sold built models on E-Bay".

It always seemed a bit presumptuous(sp?) to advertise anything I did as 'professionally built' so I have always used 'well built' as my tag line. I think I will start signing the bottom or the inside of the build with a 'sharpie', an idea I read a few days ago on one of the internet sites I frequent. Maybe if everyone did that it would cut down on "build thievery"

Rick