With the announced Fast Attack Vehicle (FAV) by Hobby Boss, I've started trying to work out the confusion that surrounds the Chenowth vehicles. Here's my BASIC understanding of the whole deal and surely could be incorrect. So, take a read and help me flesh this subject out by adding/correcting my info.
Fast Attack Vehicle (FAV) 1st version mostly used by the 9th Infantry Division. It's a 2 seater, although it looks like a third crew member would sometimes sit uncomfortably on the back. It looks like the Hobby Boss Kit represents this version.
Desert Patrol Vehicle (DPV) - When the 9th ID got rid of their FAV's, many were handed over to the SEALS. The SEALS made changes, most notably adding the back "cage" for a third crew member.
Light Strike Vehicle (LSV) - Upgraded and improved version of the DPV. Used by Special Forces and USMC?
Advanced Light Strike Vehicle (ALSV) - Improved version of the LSV. Used by Special Forces and USMC. Most recent version in this vehicle family.
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Chenowth FAV/DPV/LSV
WarWheels
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 08:33 PM UTC
marcb
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 09:19 PM UTC
Was the DPV the one used in ODS?
WarWheels
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 09:23 PM UTC
From what I understand, the DPV was the most prominent vehicle used in ODS. However, a few of the unmodified FAV's were floating around here and there.
Finally, I meant to do this before, but here's a really nice site dedicated to the FAV: http://www.fastattackvehicle.com/index.html
Finally, I meant to do this before, but here's a really nice site dedicated to the FAV: http://www.fastattackvehicle.com/index.html
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 10:15 PM UTC
Scorpion DPV tested and not accepted by 9 ID.
The SEAL FAV (they didn't call it the DPV) was actually a different vehicle. They were not recycled 9 ID DPV/FAVs with the rear seat/cage added. They were a slightly longer vehicle. They also had different front and rear shock mounts as well as the roll cage being slightly different around the driver and gunner. There were other differences/improvements over the DPV as well. They were made about the same time as the Chenowth Scorpion DPV for the 9 ID though.
SEAL FAV as used in ODS, '90-'91.
I believe the Light Strike Vehicle (LSV) is just the newest name (2000s) for the FAV. New electronics and gadgets up top changed the name. As used in Iraq '03.
The Chenowth ALSV is a totally different vehicle.
The SEAL FAV (they didn't call it the DPV) was actually a different vehicle. They were not recycled 9 ID DPV/FAVs with the rear seat/cage added. They were a slightly longer vehicle. They also had different front and rear shock mounts as well as the roll cage being slightly different around the driver and gunner. There were other differences/improvements over the DPV as well. They were made about the same time as the Chenowth Scorpion DPV for the 9 ID though.
SEAL FAV as used in ODS, '90-'91.
I believe the Light Strike Vehicle (LSV) is just the newest name (2000s) for the FAV. New electronics and gadgets up top changed the name. As used in Iraq '03.
The Chenowth ALSV is a totally different vehicle.
WarWheels
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:15 PM UTC
Thanks for the info Gino.
Another question, so the "Scorpion" DPV was the name for the original three seater?
Another question, so the "Scorpion" DPV was the name for the original three seater?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:18 PM UTC
No, the Scopion was the original 2-seater that I posted the picture of above in MERDC camo.
WarWheels
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:36 PM UTC
I can't see that pic...
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:43 PM UTC
That is strange, I see them. Can you see the other pics of the other vehicles in the same post? There should be five total pics.
Click here, it is the middle pic in the top row.
Click here, it is the middle pic in the top row.
WarWheels
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:55 PM UTC
It's odd, I can see all the other pics. So I went to smart phone and can see it on that platform. Weird.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 - 11:57 PM UTC
That is weird. Oh well, glad you can see it though. To me, the announced Hobby Boss model looks closest to, but not exactly like the Chenowth Scorpion DPV. I wish they had done an actual SEAL FAV as they showed many years ago.
WarWheels
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Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 - 03:22 AM UTC
I've just found a copy of the Operator's Manual from 1982 on the Fast Attack Vehicle website (referred to above) that refers to the original vehicle as the Surrogate FAV. All the other contemporary docs and references also point to the 2 seater as a FAV, not DPV.
Also, I've been in contact with the person who put up the website, and he also confirms the original 2 seat vehicle as being referred to as a FAV. But, he did state that the second SEAL vehicle was originally referred to as a FAV, before being renamed DPV.
Finally, he also states that the name "Scorpion" was never official as he can't find any source material referring to any variant as such.
Also, I've been in contact with the person who put up the website, and he also confirms the original 2 seat vehicle as being referred to as a FAV. But, he did state that the second SEAL vehicle was originally referred to as a FAV, before being renamed DPV.
Finally, he also states that the name "Scorpion" was never official as he can't find any source material referring to any variant as such.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 - 09:34 AM UTC
The first vehicle was called a FAV by the Army test bureau. Scorpion was not an official name either, but Chenowth's name for it as well.
Not sure when the FAV/DPV name change supposedly occurred, but I have only heard the SEAL vehicle called a FAV.
Not sure when the FAV/DPV name change supposedly occurred, but I have only heard the SEAL vehicle called a FAV.
Trisaw
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Posted: Saturday, December 16, 2017 - 07:08 AM UTC
There's quite a bit of name confusion. The SEAL DPV is called that, but the US Marines called theirs the LSV. I have not seen a USMC DPV = LSV as the Mercedes G IFAV and then the M1161 "Growler" ITV took over.
The Chenowth concept for the FAV and DPV was good, but during the SCUD hunt, it was found that the DPVs lacked the stowage capacity and hence fell out of favor for the HMMWVs which eventually became the USSOCOM GMVs. Also, the Chenowths lacked water-cooled radiators and hence had a tendency to engine overheat in the Middle East. These were actual racing dune buggies which functioned well in the Baja Californa races with the cool coastal ocean air, but when out in the middle of the desert with no sea breeze, that can be a problem for the engine. So they were not that popular anymore and SOCOM preferred actual trucks---GMVs, FMTVs, and civilian pickups---with water-cooled radiators and cargo beds. The dune buggies were fine for raids, but long range patrols were not suitable due to lack of stowage space. Also being specialized, repair parts were rare and expensive, having to come direct from the manufacturer itself.
These FAV/DPVs basically lack any batteries and dash sockets for SINCGARS radios, jammers, terminals, and communications equipment, and being flat-bottom, are highly vulnerable to IEDs.
Rumor has it that USSOCOM bought the ALSV when it came out, but I've never seen any real photos of it in service, let alone combat.
Yes, it's true that the SEAL DPVs were bought out of mothballs, refurbished, new communications added, and pressed into service in Afghanistan. Still, their issues persisted such as air cooled engines and lack of storage space for long patrols.
The Chenowth concept for the FAV and DPV was good, but during the SCUD hunt, it was found that the DPVs lacked the stowage capacity and hence fell out of favor for the HMMWVs which eventually became the USSOCOM GMVs. Also, the Chenowths lacked water-cooled radiators and hence had a tendency to engine overheat in the Middle East. These were actual racing dune buggies which functioned well in the Baja Californa races with the cool coastal ocean air, but when out in the middle of the desert with no sea breeze, that can be a problem for the engine. So they were not that popular anymore and SOCOM preferred actual trucks---GMVs, FMTVs, and civilian pickups---with water-cooled radiators and cargo beds. The dune buggies were fine for raids, but long range patrols were not suitable due to lack of stowage space. Also being specialized, repair parts were rare and expensive, having to come direct from the manufacturer itself.
These FAV/DPVs basically lack any batteries and dash sockets for SINCGARS radios, jammers, terminals, and communications equipment, and being flat-bottom, are highly vulnerable to IEDs.
Rumor has it that USSOCOM bought the ALSV when it came out, but I've never seen any real photos of it in service, let alone combat.
Yes, it's true that the SEAL DPVs were bought out of mothballs, refurbished, new communications added, and pressed into service in Afghanistan. Still, their issues persisted such as air cooled engines and lack of storage space for long patrols.
WarWheels
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Posted: Sunday, December 17, 2017 - 01:21 AM UTC
Thanks for the input Peter.
As I first started looking through the info available, it appeared to me there were 4 distinct vehicles in the series: FAV, DPV, LSV and ALSV. However, based upon the primary and contemporary references I've looked at, I'm now suspecting that the DPV & LSV were really one basic vehicle, but with a few sundry differences between them. Basically, dovetailing with what you've stated: the LSV being the Marines' name for it and the SEALS' name being DPV.
And throw in the fact that the LSV looks to have been originally named FAV, doesn't help. I found a Chenowth brochure from AFTER ODS that refers to the 3 seater as a FAV/LSV.
More to come.
As I first started looking through the info available, it appeared to me there were 4 distinct vehicles in the series: FAV, DPV, LSV and ALSV. However, based upon the primary and contemporary references I've looked at, I'm now suspecting that the DPV & LSV were really one basic vehicle, but with a few sundry differences between them. Basically, dovetailing with what you've stated: the LSV being the Marines' name for it and the SEALS' name being DPV.
And throw in the fact that the LSV looks to have been originally named FAV, doesn't help. I found a Chenowth brochure from AFTER ODS that refers to the 3 seater as a FAV/LSV.
More to come.
Trisaw
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Posted: Sunday, December 17, 2017 - 01:38 AM UTC
I also think that the 2-seat Polaris RZR (before the MRZR) and Kawasaki Teryx (UTV) replaced the DPV mainly because they have cargo beds and being mass-market produced civilian ATVs, the repair parts can be readily purchased way more easily around the world than from one company. Also these fit inside the USSOCOM CV-22 whereas the DPV can't. Also, I don't think these had engine overheat problems since they're so light as ATVs.
After all, dune buggies are often loud with no mufflers so it doesn't really matter what dune buggy or ATV Special Forces ride in. With the SEAL DPV, there's a long cylindrical engine air filter than one has to change in sandy environments...older engine tech.
If you look at the recent USSOCOM Public Affairs vehicle inventory list, the Baja racing DPVs and ALSVs are no longer listed, having been replaced by the "golf cart" dune buggies (UTVs and Polaris MRZRs) and now the Polaris DAGOR and General Dynamics Flyer dune buggy truck series in addition to the modified civilian pickups.
That's why the compact Mercedes G Wagen became so popular as an interim FAV truck (because it can haul more and had a radiator) until they wore out and were replaced by other now purpose-built SOF vehicles.
After all, dune buggies are often loud with no mufflers so it doesn't really matter what dune buggy or ATV Special Forces ride in. With the SEAL DPV, there's a long cylindrical engine air filter than one has to change in sandy environments...older engine tech.
If you look at the recent USSOCOM Public Affairs vehicle inventory list, the Baja racing DPVs and ALSVs are no longer listed, having been replaced by the "golf cart" dune buggies (UTVs and Polaris MRZRs) and now the Polaris DAGOR and General Dynamics Flyer dune buggy truck series in addition to the modified civilian pickups.
That's why the compact Mercedes G Wagen became so popular as an interim FAV truck (because it can haul more and had a radiator) until they wore out and were replaced by other now purpose-built SOF vehicles.