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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
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AFV Club M60A23 Early vs. M60A2 Late
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 10:19 PM UTC
AFV Club has just announced an M60A2 Early Type kit, seen at PMMS. Looking at it and from what I know about M60A2s, is it just the bore evac on the barrel that makes it an "Early" version? The rest looks the same as their previously released "Late" version. I would think the T142 track would be on the later version and the early version would have the T97 track as well.

M60A2 Early


M60A2 Late
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 10:27 PM UTC
Isn’t it the lack of the rear hull CBSS bulge that is the true identifier of an early version?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 10:45 PM UTC
I believe the CBSS was absent on only the early test vehicles. All in-service vehicles has CBSS. Some kept the bore evac, and others had the smooth barrel.

I haven't seen what is in the kit yet, but the track is still throwing me. The later T142 tracks should be on a later version, not early.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 11:06 PM UTC
Gino, I think you are right about the track. I trained on the M60A2 during Missile transition school at Knox in 1976, and later went to the 11th ACR, and all I remember is the later track on any of the M60 series. I think maybe AFV club got the two mixed up- but they make a nice set of T-142 replacement track.
VR, Russ
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 01:25 AM UTC
I would suspect the track differences could have resulted in AFV Club consulting restored/museum examples or images showing what appears to be early version M60A2s with the T142 tracks or late version M60A2s that retained the early barrels

Is this a early version with T142 track or is a late version that retained the defunct bore evacuator from an early version and has the T142 track? Is the CBSS bulge present?



This old M60A2 looks like a later version with the later barrel, CBSS bulge, and the T97 track.



This looks like a true later version M60A2.



Museum example...late barrel and T97 tracks.



Another museum example...early barrel and T142 tracks.



GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 01:27 AM UTC
I looked at the photos posted on Facebook and the early version kit includes the CBSS bulge. The only obvious difference is the barrel and the track.

The T142 tracks would better fit the late version than the early. Also the laste version could include armored air cleaners instead of simple toploaders.

Taliking about an early version, check out the inclination of the stowage bins on this vehicle:



Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 06:18 AM UTC
I'm going to be cynical.

The only thing different is the decal sheet and the gun tube. Funny that the "early" one has the later paint scheme, track and markings. And though not visible on the box art the "early" could also have side loading air cleaners too. Or it could all just be a sham to sell two kits rather than have the options in one box with the "early" and "late" being completely arbitrary.

According to one ancient article by a M60A2 tanker in Military Modeler: The MERDC pattern painting came first with plain black codes, then the tanks were supposedly repainted in forest green with the sand backed black codes.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 08:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm going to be cynical.

The only thing different is the decal sheet and the gun tube. Funny that the "early" one has the later paint scheme, track and markings. And though not visible on the box art the "early" could also have side loading air cleaners too. Or it could all just be a sham to sell two kits rather than have the options in one box with the "early" and "late" being completely arbitrary.



That was the case with their M42 Duster. The difference, as I recall, was minor, like an M1919 or M60 on the pintle mount. They had parts for true early and late vehicles in the box (like the loading door between the driver's hatches) but they didn't work that angle. Honest early and late vehicles would be possible with just a few extra parts.

KL
GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 03:24 PM UTC
Here are the photos of the built kit, posted by AFV Club on FB:



https://s14.postimg.org/6y7bgmgn5/26198179_1606934239352089_8272141308699515404_o.jpg[/img]








HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:20 PM UTC
Yup, just a new barrel, T142 tracks, and new decals.

Based on the markings (Top Gun 1979, black stenciling w/sand background), late T142 tracks, and the CBSS bulge, it isn't really an "Early Type", but one that was updated w/CBSS and the bore evac was left on. It is probably from late '79 or '80, about the end of the lifespan for M60A2s.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 09:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Yup, just a new barrel, T142 tracks, and new decals.



I just noticed something else - the "early" kit has aluminum wheels while the "late" kit has steel wheels.

Also, the "late" kit came with options for either armored or aluminum air cleaners, this one probably does too, so that's not specific to this kit.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 09:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Taliking about an early version, check out the inclination of the stowage bins on this vehicle:



TOO early. That's one of the M60A1E1 prototypes.

KL
GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 10:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Taliking about an early version, check out the inclination of the stowage bins on this vehicle:



TOO early. That's one of the M60A1E1 prototypes.

KL



Oooh,I see. Thanks for pointing that out.
Vodnik
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 11:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Yup, just a new barrel, T142 tracks, and new decals.



I just noticed something else - the "early" kit has aluminum wheels while the "late" kit has steel wheels.



Every AFV Club M60 kit comes with both types of wheels in the box.
Vodnik
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Posted: Friday, January 05, 2018 - 11:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That's right. I forgot about the CBSS bulge being absent on the early ones.



According to some sources (which I personally believe, as I wasn't able to find any photos of in service M60A2 without CBSS) EVERY production M60A2 came with CBSS, even though many of them had the earlier type gun barrel with fume extractor. Supposedly only M60A1E1 prototypes/test vehicles lacked the CBSS, but a lot of guns had been built in the early configuration before the actual production of tanks has stated.

Basically there was no "early" or "late" M60A2 - even the late production ones could have the early barrel installed and could have been fitted with both types of tracks or wheels during their service.
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 12:48 AM UTC
Is there any definitive clarification about early or late versions and the associated details in the Sabot Publications M60A2, MBT, Volume 1 or 2 books?



Tankrider
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 01:32 AM UTC
Jason,
Nope. based on my research for the forward of Volume 1, I used the Patton bible, Hunnicutt's Patton, The History of the American Main Battle Tank as my primary source. In it it outlines that the testing on the M81 Gun Launcher occurred in 1965-66 where the issue arose with the combustable material remaining in the chamber. Solving this took approximately 6 years and with production of the M60A2s began in 1973, it is probably safe to say that all fielded A2s had CBSS. There were a number of turrets that were built in the late 1960's, which probably accounts for the Gun/Launchers mounted in A2 turrets with with as well as without the bore evacuators (fume extractors, for you Commonwealth tankers) - as Pawel mentioned above.

So, I would state that there is no Early or Late versions on the M60A2. The early or late would more specifically relate to the service life of the vehicle and is associated with the changing of components that usually wear out (track and roadwheels) with improved items (M48 steel roadwheels) or newly fielded components (T-142 vs T97E2 track). That is just my offering to this discussion

John
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 04:03 AM UTC
Yep - you guys reinforce what I found when I researched for a review of the Academy kit a few years back - the short service life meant there wasn't really a chance for "phases". When issued they all had CBSS gear, and they were most likely to have the new-fangled aluminum wheels, older T97 track, and a redundant bore evacuator still in place, and over time these could be (but weren't always) replaced by steel wheels, the new T142 track, and the naked barrel. Comments from a few old A2 hands suggests these upgrades were very haphazard indeed, so photos are a must for an accurate build!

Not sure how this affects the two AFV Club releases...
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 04:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

. . . . it outlines that the testing on the M81 Gun Launcher occurred in 1965-66 where the issue arose with the combustable material remaining in the chamber. Solving this took approximately 6 years and with production of the M60A2s began in 1973, it is probably safe to say that all fielded A2s had CBSS. There were a number of turrets that were built in the late 1960's, which probably accounts for the Gun/Launchers mounted in A2 turrets with with as well as without the bore evacuators (fume extractors, for you Commonwealth tankers) - as Pawel mentioned above.



From the FY71 Defense Budget Overview:

"The Army's attempt to improve that vehicle by incorporating a new SHILLELAGH missile/l52mm gun system, however, has not been successful. The 300 M60 A1E2 tanks with the new missile/gun turrets, which were purchased in FY 1967, are still not usable in their present configuration. Neither are the 243 separate turrets which were to be retrofitted on standard M60 tank hulls. The Army now believes that the turret stabilization problem can be corrected relatively soon, but that the reliability problem will take longer to solve. Inasmuch as the increased effectiveness which could be provided by these tanks is needed, we believe an additional effort to see what would be required to correct the deficiencies is warranted. Accordingly, $3.8 million of FY 1970 funds has been allocated to this effort and another $12.1 million is included in the FY 1971 Budget for this purpose. ($280 million has already been invested in this program.)"

Also, I've seen a number of test reports from 1968 - 69 on the M60A1E2 with CBSS and XM162 GL with CBSS, so that looks to be the production configuration. The only question would seem to be the 300 pre-standardized "M60A1E2" and if they were built with or retrofitted with CBSS.

KL
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jason,
Nope. based on my research for the forward of Volume 1, I used the Patton bible, Hunnicutt's Patton, The History of the American Main Battle Tank as my primary source. In it it outlines that the testing on the M81 Gun Launcher occurred in 1965-66 where the issue arose with the combustable material remaining in the chamber. Solving this took approximately 6 years and with production of the M60A2s began in 1973, it is probably safe to say that all fielded A2s had CBSS. There were a number of turrets that were built in the late 1960's, which probably accounts for the Gun/Launchers mounted in A2 turrets with with as well as without the bore evacuators (fume extractors, for you Commonwealth tankers) - as Pawel mentioned above.

So, I would state that there is no Early or Late versions on the M60A2. The early or late would more specifically relate to the service life of the vehicle and is associated with the changing of components that usually wear out (track and roadwheels) with improved items (M48 steel roadwheels) or newly fielded components (T-142 vs T97E2 track). That is just my offering to this discussion

John



Thanks very much John...let the building begin!

Were the dozer blades an enigma on the M60A2s or issued one per Company? I have a Verlinden M9 dozer blade looking for a home.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 06:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Thanks very much John...let the building begin!

Were the dozer blades an enigma on the M60A2s or issued one per Company? I have a Verlinden M9 dozer blade looking for a home.


Company executive officer's track was typically a dozer tank. I have photos in an old IPMS/USA Quarterly of M60A2 dozers.
TankCarl
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 08:34 PM UTC
Gunner, M60A2, C 1/37 armor. (C-23)
We turned in our mixed battalion of M60's and M60A1's.Starting in Dec 1975,C company drew A2's in January 1976.
Some tanks, had bore evacuator tubes (NON FUNCTIONAL)
Some had the bosses on the tube, where the bore evacuator would mount.
Some had smooth gun tubes.
All developmental test vehicles may have been on early M60 /A1 hulls, with the side loading air cleaners.None of the tanks we drew, had those. My M60 (first ride) had side loading aircleaners.
Our vehicles were issued with the T-97 chevron based track. Around Sept 1977, we swapped to the T-142 track.
NO M60A2 in our battalion had a dozer attachment.The CBSS took up the space for any connections.There would be no way to attach a pump to the end of the transmission, as the 2 high pressure compressors were hooked up there.
(Anyone remember Turboshaft oil?)
Now, I have to buy this kit, as it has 1/37 markings, and is 1 number off from C-23.The markings on the box art commemorate when 1/37 was the top gun battalion in that years' seasonal gunnery.
Burik
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 09:34 PM UTC
And the Top Gun tank depicted in the kit decals is covered In the Sabot Publications Vol 1 book. Bore evacuator and T-142 tracks.
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 09:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gunner, M60A2, C 1/37 armor. (C-23)
We turned in our mixed battalion of M60's and M60A1's.Starting in Dec 1975,C company drew A2's in January 1976.
Some tanks, had bore evacuator tubes (NON FUNCTIONAL)
Some had the bosses on the tube, where the bore evacuator would mount.
Some had smooth gun tubes.
All developmental test vehicles may have been on early M60 /A1 hulls, with the side loading air cleaners.None of the tanks we drew, had those. My M60 (first ride) had side loading aircleaners.
Our vehicles were issued with the T-97 chevron based track. Around Sept 1977, we swapped to the T-142 track.
NO M60A2 in our battalion had a dozer attachment.The CBSS took up the space for any connections.There would be no way to attach a pump to the end of the transmission, as the 2 high pressure compressors were hooked up there.
(Anyone remember Turboshaft oil?)
Now, I have to buy this kit, as it has 1/37 markings, and is 1 number off from C-23.The markings on the box art commemorate when 1/37 was the top gun battalion in that years' seasonal gunnery.



Very good first hand info. I had read in previous posts on other forums that there were issues with mounting the dozer blade on the M60A2 due to the CBSS bulge and only a few were trialed and long derelict or museum examples.....none of them had actually been assigned to tank Companies.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 10:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Gunner, M60A2, C 1/37 armor. (C-23)
We turned in our mixed battalion of M60's and M60A1's.Starting in Dec 1975,C company drew A2's in January 1976.
Some tanks, had bore evacuator tubes (NON FUNCTIONAL)
Some had the bosses on the tube, where the bore evacuator would mount.
Some had smooth gun tubes.
All developmental test vehicles may have been on early M60 /A1 hulls, with the side loading air cleaners.None of the tanks we drew, had those. My M60 (first ride) had side loading aircleaners.
Our vehicles were issued with the T-97 chevron based track. Around Sept 1977, we swapped to the T-142 track.
NO M60A2 in our battalion had a dozer attachment.The CBSS took up the space for any connections.There would be no way to attach a pump to the end of the transmission, as the 2 high pressure compressors were hooked up there.
(Anyone remember Turboshaft oil?)
Now, I have to buy this kit, as it has 1/37 markings, and is 1 number off from C-23.The markings on the box art commemorate when 1/37 was the top gun battalion in that years' seasonal gunnery.



Very good first hand info. I had read in previous posts on other forums that there were issues with mounting the dozer blade on the M60A2 due to the CBSS bulge and only a few were trialed and long derelict or museum examples.....none of them had actually been assigned to tank Companies.



That would account for the fact that in photos I've seen the hook-ups, pumps and lines were there but never actually a blade attached.

Somewhere, for some reason, one of those M60A2 blade tanks was actually converted into an M60A3 so the blade would work. The whole rear was cut off (with resulting scars) and CBSS removed. I did a turn in on it in the National Guard (we were forbidden to touch the blade stuff though some of us were heavy equipment operators on the civilian side). I was freaked to see "M60A2" in the driver's compartment data plate with the amendment for the M60A3 conversion. It wasn't supposed to exist. This was in the days before cell phones or even digital cameras and I was out of film in my camera. Like so many tanks from that motorpool it became an artificial reef.

It's kind of like how the slick pre-production mild steel M48s did eventually go through the M48A5 update program though they were prominently marked "NON-BALLISTIC STEEL-TRAINING USE ONLY" cast into the front hull? Or even how the USS Franklin was completely repaired and kept in pristine condition for 19 years after World War 2 but never went to sea again? The DoD does strange stuff.
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