It depends sometimes on other factors out of your control - like if I want to build a custom truck I have to start by finding the right wheels and tires I can use. With a tank you're probably going to want to find a similar tank with a similar suspension, road wheels and track you can make use of.
With a lot of scratch builders (not all) it would be the wheels and suspension/tracks that are most likely to put them off and be a stopper for a otherwise desirable scratch project.
But it all depends on the prototype you are trying to build. For instance, if you wanted to build one of the early US Combat Cars your task would be much easier as the suspension/road wheels/track would basically be that of the M3 Lee. Then too the body and turret(s) are more of less flat, slab sided, plate construction so fairly easy for you on the basic body construction.
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Scratch building and/or kit bashing.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 02:19 AM UTC
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 02:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It depends sometimes on other factors out of your control - like if I want to build a custom truck I have to start by finding the right wheels and tires I can use. With a tank you're probably going to want to find a similar tank with a similar suspension, road wheels and track you can make use of.
With a lot of scratch builders (not all) it would be the wheels and suspension/tracks that are most likely to put them off and be a stopper for a otherwise desirable scratch project.
But it all depends on the prototype you are trying to build. For instance, if you wanted to build one of the early US Combat Cars your task would be much easier as the suspension/road wheels/track would basically be that of the M3 Lee. Then too the body and turret(s) are more of less flat, slab sided, plate construction so fairly easy for you on the basic body construction.
Fair enough, thanks for the fast response.
I'll have to research into this alot more before it goes anywhere, but currently I'd be planning to build an M8 AGS or XM800T... Not honestly sure of the closest vehicle to either, Most likely the Sheridan or Bradley. Though, a quick search seems to show the M8s tracks being different, so I'm probably out of luck there.
Still, I'll keep that advice in mind, I saw a picture of a scratchbuilt M8 earlier today that started my interest... So, its not impossible. Going to see if I can find it again!
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 02:49 AM UTC
Already found the page with it.
This is the page here where it shows a few pictures of the scratchbuilt M8: http://www.combatreform.org/lighttanks.htm
It's a blocky little thing, so, aside from the suspension and gun, it seems pretty simple, but I have no idea about the tracks... The wheels look similar to the M113 or Bradley, though.
Edit: Not bottom of the page / words*
This is the page here where it shows a few pictures of the scratchbuilt M8: http://www.combatreform.org/lighttanks.htm
It's a blocky little thing, so, aside from the suspension and gun, it seems pretty simple, but I have no idea about the tracks... The wheels look similar to the M113 or Bradley, though.
Edit: Not bottom of the page / words*
rdt1953
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 1,098 posts
Armorama: 68 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 03:03 AM UTC
Just a comment or two on previous posts in this thread -
Angel's point regarding all things can be broken down into basic geometric shapes is spot on and of paramount importance to creating things on your own. There is much to be said for starting with something simple and growing from there . What is considered simple may vary from one individual to another - I suppose I am stating the obvious here but much depends on innate or learned recognition of spatial relations and experience with creating these shapes.
My second comment concerns Biggles point regarding needing plans / drawings .
Certainly important but don't be discouraged if you can not find them - part of this process is creating your own plans . I built the Hucks truck by drawing up simple 3 view plans all based on photos found on the Internet. I used the wheel rim diameter as a common known unit and proportioned and located all the components using this basis .
Give it a go and please share your results with us - Richard
Angel's point regarding all things can be broken down into basic geometric shapes is spot on and of paramount importance to creating things on your own. There is much to be said for starting with something simple and growing from there . What is considered simple may vary from one individual to another - I suppose I am stating the obvious here but much depends on innate or learned recognition of spatial relations and experience with creating these shapes.
My second comment concerns Biggles point regarding needing plans / drawings .
Certainly important but don't be discouraged if you can not find them - part of this process is creating your own plans . I built the Hucks truck by drawing up simple 3 view plans all based on photos found on the Internet. I used the wheel rim diameter as a common known unit and proportioned and located all the components using this basis .
Give it a go and please share your results with us - Richard
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
Armorama: 8,695 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 04:14 AM UTC
Suggest you compare Paladin road wheels and track to M8. Not sure about drive sprocket and idler. Could be wrong, I often am.
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Suggest you compare Paladin road wheels and track to M8. Not sure about drive sprocket and idler. Could be wrong, I often am.
Seems similar, but I 'think' M109 tracks might be a bit too wide.
The track pattern is a bit 'off' too... I've got a few ideas, though. Worst case, I'm intending to build it as a 'what-if?' in-service vehicle anyway, so there's a bit of breathing room with the track type.
Granted, I think this might have hurt my determination a bit, lol. So, worst case, it's not impossible a kit of it might pop up eventually?
Edit: On a positive note, I learned that a junk M109 suspension would work if I was determined to scratchbuild a Stingray light tank (Another thing on my list), so, that's nice.
Still far off plans due to life issues, but nice!
petbat
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 04:12 PM UTC
Tracks can be scratch built like anything else and if you learn the basic scratch building techniques tracks similar to those on the M109 will not be that hard. Break them down to geometric shapes and there is not much that will stop you.
Make the pad using layers of card for the chevron and base plate. Make an upper and lower pad part, scribe a groove where the skeleton frame rods for the end connectors are to go. Then build the skeleton frame from brass rods or straight pins and glue to one pad and put the other on top. Make your end connectors and guide horns from styrene stock.
Making them all will be time consuming, but make a few and then learn another scratch builders art - resin casting. Use the parts of the tracks you made as a master and you can run off as many as you need. Easier to cast the pads, end connectors and guide horns separate to ensure you get no air bubbles in the guide horns, etc.
If you cut the brass rod (or use cut straight pins in place of the brass for the whole process)to length for the skeleton frame and set them in the mould and pour the resin around them you will get very strong connector points.
Then of course you could by AFV's set of M109 indy tracks, cut a section out of the centre and glue together to form one narrower track. The guide horn would need to be cut off an repositioned of course and you may be able to rework the other details you mentioned. (And you will need to fill the proprietary AFV club sink marks which are prevalent in all their indy track sets I have ever had.)
Riich and Italeri do a set but the end connectors are integral to the frame where AFV club are separate.
Make the pad using layers of card for the chevron and base plate. Make an upper and lower pad part, scribe a groove where the skeleton frame rods for the end connectors are to go. Then build the skeleton frame from brass rods or straight pins and glue to one pad and put the other on top. Make your end connectors and guide horns from styrene stock.
Making them all will be time consuming, but make a few and then learn another scratch builders art - resin casting. Use the parts of the tracks you made as a master and you can run off as many as you need. Easier to cast the pads, end connectors and guide horns separate to ensure you get no air bubbles in the guide horns, etc.
If you cut the brass rod (or use cut straight pins in place of the brass for the whole process)to length for the skeleton frame and set them in the mould and pour the resin around them you will get very strong connector points.
Then of course you could by AFV's set of M109 indy tracks, cut a section out of the centre and glue together to form one narrower track. The guide horn would need to be cut off an repositioned of course and you may be able to rework the other details you mentioned. (And you will need to fill the proprietary AFV club sink marks which are prevalent in all their indy track sets I have ever had.)
Riich and Italeri do a set but the end connectors are integral to the frame where AFV club are separate.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:04 PM UTC
The tracks for the XM800T and M109 differ in more than just the width (19 vs 15 inches). The rubber on the XM800T has straight edges but the M109 looks like a distorted chevron:
Toadmans Tank Pictures.
Note the shape of the rubber pad made up of 4 straight edges.
Shape of rubber has 8 edges and two rounded corners
I am also having doubts about the track pitch but that could simply be my imagination.
The end connectors could probably be used though ...
/ Robin
Toadmans Tank Pictures.
Note the shape of the rubber pad made up of 4 straight edges.
Shape of rubber has 8 edges and two rounded corners
I am also having doubts about the track pitch but that could simply be my imagination.
The end connectors could probably be used though ...
/ Robin
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Tracks can be scratch built like anything else and if you learn the basic scratch building techniques tracks similar to those on the M109 will not be that hard. Break them down to geometric shapes and there is not much that will stop you.
Make the pad using layers of card for the chevron and base plate. Make an upper and lower pad part, scribe a groove where the skeleton frame rods for the end connectors are to go. Then build the skeleton frame from brass rods or straight pins and glue to one pad and put the other on top. Make your end connectors and guide horns from styrene stock.
Making them all will be time consuming, but make a few and then learn another scratch builders art - resin casting. Use the parts of the tracks you made as a master and you can run off as many as you need. Easier to cast the pads, end connectors and guide horns separate to ensure you get no air bubbles in the guide horns, etc.
If you cut the brass rod (or use cut straight pins in place of the brass for the whole process)to length for the skeleton frame and set them in the mould and pour the resin around them you will get very strong connector points.
Then of course you could by AFV's set of M109 indy tracks, cut a section out of the centre and glue together to form one narrower track. The guide horn would need to be cut off an repositioned of course and you may be able to rework the other details you mentioned. (And you will need to fill the proprietary AFV club sink marks which are prevalent in all their indy track sets I have ever had.)
Riich and Italeri do a set but the end connectors are integral to the frame where AFV club are separate.
Fair enough, thanks for the detailed response, I hadnt even thought of resin casting a few scratchbuilt links! That should make it atleast possible, lol.
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The tracks for the XM800T and M109 differ in more than just the width (19 vs 15 inches). The rubber on the XM800T has straight edges but the M109 looks like a distorted chevron:
Toadmans Tank Pictures.
Note the shape of the rubber pad made up of 4 straight edges.
Shape of rubber has 8 edges and two rounded corners
I am also having doubts about the track pitch but that could simply be my imagination.
The end connectors could probably be used though ...
/ Robin
I did notice that the XM800Ts was alot different, I believe M109 was suggested for something like the M8 AGS' suspension? (Still not entirely similar, IMO)
But, other than that, thanks for helping me find a source of reference pictures I hadnt seen before for the M8 and XM800T!
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 10:53 PM UTC
Well anything is theoretically possible but you are running an increased risk of failure if you go out and buy a guitar and expect to be able to play like Hendrix after a couple of days. I doubt you will find many successful proponents in any field of human endeavour whose first project was complex and which worked brilliantly.
Anyway, the first law of scratchbuilding is that as soon as you finish a project, at least one manufacturer will release a kit of it.
Anyway, the first law of scratchbuilding is that as soon as you finish a project, at least one manufacturer will release a kit of it.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe tracks for the XM800T and M109 differ in more than just the width (19 vs 15 inches). The rubber on the XM800T has straight edges but the M109 looks like a distorted chevron:
Toadmans Tank Pictures.
Note the shape of the rubber pad made up of 4 straight edges.
Shape of rubber has 8 edges and two rounded corners
I am also having doubts about the track pitch but that could simply be my imagination.
The end connectors could probably be used though ...
/ Robin
I did notice that the XM800Ts was alot different, I believe M109 was suggested for something like the M8 AGS' suspension? (Still not entirely similar, IMO)
But, other than that, thanks for helping me find a source of reference pictures I hadnt seen before for the M8 and XM800T!
The M8 has rectangular track blocks ....
"The track is of the steel double pin T150 type with detachable rubber pads, 152 mm pitch and 381 mm wide and has been developed by United Defense LP, Steel Products Division."
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product926.html
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2244.html T-150 track
I get the impression that this type of track could be used on M113's as alternative to T-130
/ Robin
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:27 PM UTC
The entire running gear of the M8 is based on an M113; roadwheels, sprockets, idler, track, etc.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The entire running gear of the M8 is based on an M113; roadwheels, sprockets, idler, track, etc.
Thanks!
and That solves all the really difficult bits
Shalta, now there are no excuses anymore
/ Robin
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 01:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe entire running gear of the M8 is based on an M113; roadwheels, sprockets, idler, track, etc.
Thanks!
and That solves all the really difficult bits
Shalta, now there are no excuses anymore
/ Robin
That's pretty good to know, it looked similar, but I couldnt find anything 100% on it.
Probably not an immediate project, as I have quite a few things to deal with untill the end of March, but I'll try to post it here when I start on it, I'm certainly looking forward to it!
ayovtshev
#490
Joined: September 22, 2016
KitMaker: 1,432 posts
Armorama: 1,390 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 01:54 AM UTC
Folks,
The Scratch Builder Campaign has been approved.
You can find Rules and Regulations here
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=950
The door is wide open!
The Scratch Builder Campaign has been approved.
You can find Rules and Regulations here
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=950
The door is wide open!
KelticKnot
Joined: May 11, 2015
KitMaker: 768 posts
Armorama: 12 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 04:29 AM UTC
I'd be in with my Dakota if it wasn't already in another....
Will watch this campaign with great interest though.
Will watch this campaign with great interest though.
samkidd
Joined: January 06, 2006
KitMaker: 530 posts
Armorama: 450 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 27, 2018 - 03:02 AM UTC
Building military subjects exclusively in 1/24 scale I have a fair amount of scratchbuilding experience. One of the pieces of advice that seems so basic and yet is often missed by many when they begin to scratchbuild is the rule of basic shapes.
If you look at an object you wish to recreate and see a huge number of details you might be put off by the object's complexity. Instead, look at that object as broken down into it's basic shapes. Most of these shapes are available in Evergreen and Plastruct plastics so it then becomes a matter of layering these pieces of styrene to create the shape you're after.
A great example of this is the Mortar Base plate from a WWII US 81mm mortar. At first glance it seems impossible to recreate. But closer examination and you start to see shapes and elements as separate pieces of available styrene. Those raised beads on the face? Half round stock. The curled outside edge? Round tubing that's had half it's diameter filed off. Those imposing cast "cleat" features on the bottom? Flat styrene with the edges sanded down.
Getting comfortable with bending and shaping styrene strips and shapes with warmth from a hair dryer will also add a new dimension to what you are capable of creating.
Armorama has some absolutely amazing scratchbuilders that post here. If you really want to try something difficult or get stuck on something try posting or reaching out in a PM to one of these individuals. Most are super helpful and supportive and will likely have already dealt with any problem you might encounter. You've got experts on hand.
Jim
LSA
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